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	<title>Comments on: The subterranean humanity was nonsense</title>
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	<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2025/05/the-subterranean-humanity-was-nonsense/</link>
	<description>From the ancient Greek for equality in freedom of speech; an eclectic mix of thoughts, large and small</description>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2025/05/the-subterranean-humanity-was-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-3758503</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jun 2025 04:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Sir, I regret my response as a small boy!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sir, I regret my response as a small boy!</p>
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		<title>By: Gaikokumaniakku</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2025/05/the-subterranean-humanity-was-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-3758497</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaikokumaniakku</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2025 13:00:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[“I remember trying to like the TV show, because Science Fiction, but thirtyish actors just don’t impress small boys as beefcake and cheesecake.”

Do I understand you correctly, sir? Do you mean to suggest that Erin Gray was not a worthy choice to portray Wilma Deering?

https://www.buckwiki.com/data/Wilma_Deering

Scandal! Outrage! I shall write a sternly-worded letter to the Times!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“I remember trying to like the TV show, because Science Fiction, but thirtyish actors just don’t impress small boys as beefcake and cheesecake.”</p>
<p>Do I understand you correctly, sir? Do you mean to suggest that Erin Gray was not a worthy choice to portray Wilma Deering?</p>
<p><a href="https://www.buckwiki.com/data/Wilma_Deering" >https://www.buckwiki.com/data/Wilma_Deering</a></p>
<p>Scandal! Outrage! I shall write a sternly-worded letter to the Times!</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2025/05/the-subterranean-humanity-was-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-3758492</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2025 04:22:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=53058#comment-3758492</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Isegoria: Thanks, just read it. I&#039;m not sure if I ever read the sequel to the first book before. Pulp based on men who&#039;d been through the Western Front and liked it sure gets bloodthirsty.

Less racist than I remembered. There&#039;s even a good word for Asians not corrupted by evil space alien blood. Still, not politically correct.

The stuff about the crushed subjects of the evil empire spending their days on drugs, never leaving cramped apartments, watching viewscreen agitprop all day, failing to reproduce even with the Emperor giving bonuses, while maintenance workers shake down Princes of the Blood and rail their top concubines at will . . . That Crazy Buck Rogers Stuff.


I can see why Niven and Pournelle gave Buck Mordred, his doom and bastard child by his rape of the Han princess. 

I remember trying to like the TV show, because Science Fiction, but thirtyish actors just don&#039;t impress small boys as beefcake and cheesecake. And as you say, the TV show&#039;s not taken from Armageddon 2419, which I&#039;d read and liked. I also liked the trilogy Jim Baen published per the Niven and Pournelle outline. Especially the second, which may have been written by the guy who wrote &#039;The Sand Pebbles&#039;. The second novel actually is a novel, not just pulp.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isegoria: Thanks, just read it. I&#8217;m not sure if I ever read the sequel to the first book before. Pulp based on men who&#8217;d been through the Western Front and liked it sure gets bloodthirsty.</p>
<p>Less racist than I remembered. There&#8217;s even a good word for Asians not corrupted by evil space alien blood. Still, not politically correct.</p>
<p>The stuff about the crushed subjects of the evil empire spending their days on drugs, never leaving cramped apartments, watching viewscreen agitprop all day, failing to reproduce even with the Emperor giving bonuses, while maintenance workers shake down Princes of the Blood and rail their top concubines at will . . . That Crazy Buck Rogers Stuff.</p>
<p>I can see why Niven and Pournelle gave Buck Mordred, his doom and bastard child by his rape of the Han princess. </p>
<p>I remember trying to like the TV show, because Science Fiction, but thirtyish actors just don&#8217;t impress small boys as beefcake and cheesecake. And as you say, the TV show&#8217;s not taken from Armageddon 2419, which I&#8217;d read and liked. I also liked the trilogy Jim Baen published per the Niven and Pournelle outline. Especially the second, which may have been written by the guy who wrote &#8216;The Sand Pebbles&#8217;. The second novel actually is a novel, not just pulp.</p>
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		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2025/05/the-subterranean-humanity-was-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-3758479</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2025 17:13:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=53058#comment-3758479</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Since you mention “1919 Buck Rogers,” I’m obliged to note that &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.isegoria.net/2013/07/armageddon-2419-ad/&quot;&gt;the post-&lt;em&gt;Star Wars&lt;/em&gt; Buck Rogers TV show bears little resemblance to the original novella, Armageddon 2419 AD&lt;/a&gt; — in which the hero is named Anthony Rogers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since you mention “1919 Buck Rogers,” I’m obliged to note that <a href="https://www.isegoria.net/2013/07/armageddon-2419-ad/">the post-<em>Star Wars</em> Buck Rogers TV show bears little resemblance to the original novella, Armageddon 2419 AD</a> — in which the hero is named Anthony Rogers.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2025/05/the-subterranean-humanity-was-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-3758478</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jun 2025 16:32:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=53058#comment-3758478</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When I read science fiction I compare it to the best science fiction writer, Larry Niven, writing in the golden age of science fiction, 1979, when I was fourteen. Niven is the best at &#039;rich tourist in fairyland&#039;. &lt;em&gt;The Coming Race&lt;/em&gt; is the story of a rich tourist in fairyland.

Legend has it James Baen gave Niven and Pournelle a case of beer to fix up an outline of 1919 Buck Rogers to 1979 SF standards. There&#039;s enough good stuff in &#039;The Coming Race&#039; to do this. Vril is a good name for psychic power: Virility! and Will! But psychic powers, quoth Niven, are Author Control. Vril is no better than usual, combining healing, mind control, and artillery strikes at the author&#039;s will. The &#039;Vril-staff&#039; operated by hydraulic stops is not bad.

For language and biology Lytton used Max Muller and Louis Agassiz; still solid authorities, well worth stealing from. There are a lot of Brit in-jokes in the invented language, like using &#039;Posh&#039; to mean &#039;trashy&#039;. 

Vril-Ya are obligate vegetarians, no canine teeth. It&#039;s a minor plot point that if the hero has children with a smitten princess of the Vril, they might have carnivore canines and require destruction as abominations. The Vril-Ya also have inherited power over Vril, as electric eels have inherited batteries for electricity.

It&#039;s a major plot point that Vril females are much bigger, mightier thewed, more endowed with magic Vril power, and generally dominant than male Vril or human males. Cute flirtations and honorable True Love between the charming hero and smitten Vril females, whose mightily-thewed height and dominance he finds off-putting. Bulwer Lytton, not a tall man, was very successful with the ladies. Louis Agassiz mentioned many cases of animals whose females are hugely bigger than males.

Children, being more ruthless and less experienced in the subtle aspects of Vril, are the soldiers and giant robot operators of their people. Vril mothers focus on healing and mind control. 

Even in 1979 comic books, Warlord of Skartaris was in an alternate dimension, not actually in a hollow Earth. The Subterranean Race would have to be in an O&#039;Neil colony or something. There are many references to rivers of naptha flowing through the Vril cities. Doesn&#039;t sound safe underground. Or above. Anti-American snipe at 19th century US industrial pollution?

This book is anti-American in the 1870 conservative British way, appalled by American equality and democracy and confidence in our Manifest Destiny when &#039;200 millions of intelligent citizens, accustomed from infancy to the daily use of revolvers, should supply to a cowering universe the doctrines of the Patriot Monroe&#039;. Of course like all humans we&#039;re inevitably doomed by The Coming Race when they emerge from below.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I read science fiction I compare it to the best science fiction writer, Larry Niven, writing in the golden age of science fiction, 1979, when I was fourteen. Niven is the best at &#8216;rich tourist in fairyland&#8217;. <em>The Coming Race</em> is the story of a rich tourist in fairyland.</p>
<p>Legend has it James Baen gave Niven and Pournelle a case of beer to fix up an outline of 1919 Buck Rogers to 1979 SF standards. There&#8217;s enough good stuff in &#8216;The Coming Race&#8217; to do this. Vril is a good name for psychic power: Virility! and Will! But psychic powers, quoth Niven, are Author Control. Vril is no better than usual, combining healing, mind control, and artillery strikes at the author&#8217;s will. The &#8216;Vril-staff&#8217; operated by hydraulic stops is not bad.</p>
<p>For language and biology Lytton used Max Muller and Louis Agassiz; still solid authorities, well worth stealing from. There are a lot of Brit in-jokes in the invented language, like using &#8216;Posh&#8217; to mean &#8216;trashy&#8217;. </p>
<p>Vril-Ya are obligate vegetarians, no canine teeth. It&#8217;s a minor plot point that if the hero has children with a smitten princess of the Vril, they might have carnivore canines and require destruction as abominations. The Vril-Ya also have inherited power over Vril, as electric eels have inherited batteries for electricity.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a major plot point that Vril females are much bigger, mightier thewed, more endowed with magic Vril power, and generally dominant than male Vril or human males. Cute flirtations and honorable True Love between the charming hero and smitten Vril females, whose mightily-thewed height and dominance he finds off-putting. Bulwer Lytton, not a tall man, was very successful with the ladies. Louis Agassiz mentioned many cases of animals whose females are hugely bigger than males.</p>
<p>Children, being more ruthless and less experienced in the subtle aspects of Vril, are the soldiers and giant robot operators of their people. Vril mothers focus on healing and mind control. </p>
<p>Even in 1979 comic books, Warlord of Skartaris was in an alternate dimension, not actually in a hollow Earth. The Subterranean Race would have to be in an O&#8217;Neil colony or something. There are many references to rivers of naptha flowing through the Vril cities. Doesn&#8217;t sound safe underground. Or above. Anti-American snipe at 19th century US industrial pollution?</p>
<p>This book is anti-American in the 1870 conservative British way, appalled by American equality and democracy and confidence in our Manifest Destiny when &#8217;200 millions of intelligent citizens, accustomed from infancy to the daily use of revolvers, should supply to a cowering universe the doctrines of the Patriot Monroe&#8217;. Of course like all humans we&#8217;re inevitably doomed by The Coming Race when they emerge from below.</p>
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		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2025/05/the-subterranean-humanity-was-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-3758432</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2025 01:33:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=53058#comment-3758432</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When I read Jules Verne’s &lt;em&gt;Journey to the Center of the Earth&lt;/em&gt;, I was surprised by how &lt;em&gt;little&lt;/em&gt; it had inspired Gygax’s &lt;em&gt;Descent into the Depths of the Earth&lt;/em&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I read Jules Verne’s <em>Journey to the Center of the Earth</em>, I was surprised by how <em>little</em> it had inspired Gygax’s <em>Descent into the Depths of the Earth</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: T. Beholder</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2025/05/the-subterranean-humanity-was-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-3758422</link>
		<dc:creator>T. Beholder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2025 02:40:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=53058#comment-3758422</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I’d like add to the list of obvious derivative works at least &lt;a href=&quot;https://torg-codex.com/cosms/tharkold&quot;&gt;Torg&lt;/a&gt; (under the original name). 

Slightly less direct ones range from Gygax’s underdark (D series) to &lt;a href=&quot;https://archive.org/details/filk_tapeworm_3/04+Ingrate.mp3&quot;&gt;this filk&lt;/a&gt; by Kanefsky.

Gaikokumaniakku says: &lt;blockquote&gt;Blavatsky was operating without scientific education, in a time before…&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Blavatsky was a mostly typical representative of late 19th to early 20th Centuries’ mysticism. Either way, it’s not like the concept was completely original, yes?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’d like add to the list of obvious derivative works at least <a href="https://torg-codex.com/cosms/tharkold">Torg</a> (under the original name). </p>
<p>Slightly less direct ones range from Gygax’s underdark (D series) to <a href="https://archive.org/details/filk_tapeworm_3/04+Ingrate.mp3">this filk</a> by Kanefsky.</p>
<p>Gaikokumaniakku says:<br />
<blockquote>Blavatsky was operating without scientific education, in a time before…</p></blockquote>
<p>Blavatsky was a mostly typical representative of late 19th to early 20th Centuries’ mysticism. Either way, it’s not like the concept was completely original, yes?</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2025/05/the-subterranean-humanity-was-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-3758414</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2025 14:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=53058#comment-3758414</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gaikokumaniakku: “Blavatsky was operating without scientific education, in a time before paranormal studies had statistical rigor. If one can establish the physical reality of ANY paranormal phenomenon, one can attribute it to ‘vril’ and declare victory.”

Yes, lol. The woo is likely limited, for the most part, to extremely mild “psychic” phenomena like autonomic response to trauma a second before it happens, and not to channeling spirits from beyond the grave… or whatever weird stuff that dramatic performers like Blavatsky et al. thought was cool in early-twentieth-century Germany.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gaikokumaniakku: “Blavatsky was operating without scientific education, in a time before paranormal studies had statistical rigor. If one can establish the physical reality of ANY paranormal phenomenon, one can attribute it to ‘vril’ and declare victory.”</p>
<p>Yes, lol. The woo is likely limited, for the most part, to extremely mild “psychic” phenomena like autonomic response to trauma a second before it happens, and not to channeling spirits from beyond the grave… or whatever weird stuff that dramatic performers like Blavatsky et al. thought was cool in early-twentieth-century Germany.</p>
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		<title>By: Gaikokumaniakku</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2025/05/the-subterranean-humanity-was-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-3758412</link>
		<dc:creator>Gaikokumaniakku</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2025 11:59:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=53058#comment-3758412</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Blavatsky was operating without scientific education, in a time before paranormal studies had statistical rigor. If one can establish the physical reality of ANY paranormal phenomenon, one can attribute it to &quot;vril&quot; and declare victory.

Incidentally, Bulwer-Lytton&#039;s books are popular with a considerable subset of modern occultists — they purchase them, they start to read them, and usually they can&#039;t make it all the way through &quot;The House and the Brain,&quot; much less &lt;em&gt;Zanoni&lt;/em&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blavatsky was operating without scientific education, in a time before paranormal studies had statistical rigor. If one can establish the physical reality of ANY paranormal phenomenon, one can attribute it to &#8220;vril&#8221; and declare victory.</p>
<p>Incidentally, Bulwer-Lytton&#8217;s books are popular with a considerable subset of modern occultists — they purchase them, they start to read them, and usually they can&#8217;t make it all the way through &#8220;The House and the Brain,&#8221; much less <em>Zanoni</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2025/05/the-subterranean-humanity-was-nonsense/comment-page-1/#comment-3758404</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2025 15:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=53058#comment-3758404</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some truth to some of this woo.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some truth to some of this woo.</p>
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