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	<title>Comments on: They would move to the cellar as indirect fire struck the top of the building or to higher floors when German Panzers approached</title>
	<atom:link href="https://www.isegoria.net/2022/03/they-would-move-to-the-cellar-as-indirect-fire-struck-the-top-of-the-building-or-to-higher-floors-when-german-panzers-approached/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2022/03/they-would-move-to-the-cellar-as-indirect-fire-struck-the-top-of-the-building-or-to-higher-floors-when-german-panzers-approached/</link>
	<description>From the ancient Greek for equality in freedom of speech; an eclectic mix of thoughts, large and small</description>
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		<title>By: John Tyler</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2022/03/they-would-move-to-the-cellar-as-indirect-fire-struck-the-top-of-the-building-or-to-higher-floors-when-german-panzers-approached/comment-page-1/#comment-3515158</link>
		<dc:creator>John Tyler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Mar 2022 15:08:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=48733#comment-3515158</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All well and good. But in the end defenders lost. All the tactics described serve to slow down the progress of the attacker; that&#039;s all. Russia will just keep sending in soldiers, keep bombing, keep killing (civilians or otherwise), encircle cities and literally starve the inhabitants/defenders, etc. Russians have never, ever cared about the quantity of dead, either Russian or not.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All well and good. But in the end defenders lost. All the tactics described serve to slow down the progress of the attacker; that&#8217;s all. Russia will just keep sending in soldiers, keep bombing, keep killing (civilians or otherwise), encircle cities and literally starve the inhabitants/defenders, etc. Russians have never, ever cared about the quantity of dead, either Russian or not.</p>
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		<title>By: VXXC</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2022/03/they-would-move-to-the-cellar-as-indirect-fire-struck-the-top-of-the-building-or-to-higher-floors-when-german-panzers-approached/comment-page-1/#comment-3512634</link>
		<dc:creator>VXXC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Mar 2022 03:35:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=48733#comment-3512634</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All of the above is correct.

Which is why since Sun Tzu it has been advisable not to go into cities. Cities have always been vulnerable to hunger and thirst, and now can be levelled with artillery, rockets, and air from a distance.  Storming a city or fortress has been a choice and usually not the first choice since ancient times. 

The Russians aren&#039;t going into the cities.  They probe and when they meet resistance fire off some artillery but are mostly maneuvering around and using siege and starve the cities [plus bombardment] and it worked in Syria, they are doing it now in Ukraine. 

Had we taken this approach in Iraq instead of trying to make them into Swedes we would have had a much shorter war and markedly more success.  When we did it against ISIS at the end - Mosul for example - it worked fine. 

The Russians are in no hurry and are proceeding methodically with an eye towards minimal destruction, the destruction they most seek to minimize is their own soldiers of course, so firepower will be used not even to lay waste but to coerce surrender. 

It does remain absolutely true that if infantry or tanks go into a city the casualties are much higher.

Sun Tzu...so nothing new here except some new tools. 

The relevant parts of Sun tzu&#039;s known writings are
&quot;If troops lay siege to a walled city, their strength will be exhausted.&quot;

&quot;Therefore, the best warfare strategy is to attack the enemy&#039;s plans, next is to attack alliances, next is to attack the army, and the worst is to attack a walled city.&quot;

&quot;Laying siege to a city is only done when other options are not available.&quot;

&quot;If the general cannot control his temper and sends troops to swarm the walls, one third of them will be killed, and the city will still not be taken.&quot;

&quot;This is the kind of calamity when laying siege to a walled city.&quot;

&quot;Therefore, one who is skilled in warfare principles subdues the enemy without doing battle, takes the enemy&#039;s walled city without attacking, and overthrows the enemy quickly, without protracted warfare.&quot;

&quot;Generally, the principles of warfare are:
...
there are walled cities not to be besieged; &quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All of the above is correct.</p>
<p>Which is why since Sun Tzu it has been advisable not to go into cities. Cities have always been vulnerable to hunger and thirst, and now can be levelled with artillery, rockets, and air from a distance.  Storming a city or fortress has been a choice and usually not the first choice since ancient times. </p>
<p>The Russians aren&#8217;t going into the cities.  They probe and when they meet resistance fire off some artillery but are mostly maneuvering around and using siege and starve the cities [plus bombardment] and it worked in Syria, they are doing it now in Ukraine. </p>
<p>Had we taken this approach in Iraq instead of trying to make them into Swedes we would have had a much shorter war and markedly more success.  When we did it against ISIS at the end &#8211; Mosul for example &#8211; it worked fine. </p>
<p>The Russians are in no hurry and are proceeding methodically with an eye towards minimal destruction, the destruction they most seek to minimize is their own soldiers of course, so firepower will be used not even to lay waste but to coerce surrender. </p>
<p>It does remain absolutely true that if infantry or tanks go into a city the casualties are much higher.</p>
<p>Sun Tzu&#8230;so nothing new here except some new tools. </p>
<p>The relevant parts of Sun tzu&#8217;s known writings are<br />
&#8220;If troops lay siege to a walled city, their strength will be exhausted.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Therefore, the best warfare strategy is to attack the enemy&#8217;s plans, next is to attack alliances, next is to attack the army, and the worst is to attack a walled city.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Laying siege to a city is only done when other options are not available.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;If the general cannot control his temper and sends troops to swarm the walls, one third of them will be killed, and the city will still not be taken.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;This is the kind of calamity when laying siege to a walled city.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Therefore, one who is skilled in warfare principles subdues the enemy without doing battle, takes the enemy&#8217;s walled city without attacking, and overthrows the enemy quickly, without protracted warfare.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Generally, the principles of warfare are:<br />
&#8230;<br />
there are walled cities not to be besieged; &#8220;</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Longmuir</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2022/03/they-would-move-to-the-cellar-as-indirect-fire-struck-the-top-of-the-building-or-to-higher-floors-when-german-panzers-approached/comment-page-1/#comment-3512549</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Longmuir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Mar 2022 21:00:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=48733#comment-3512549</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All very true. Still, the underlying assumption is that the attackers want to go mano-a-mano with the defenders.  Modern warfare, such as NATO used when it invaded Serbia, can cut off electric power, water, communications — a more effective form of the ancient tactic of besieging a city until the residents starved and surrendered.

Russia in the Ukraine seems to have generally eschewed NATO tactics, presumably to minimize casualties among civilians with whom Russia has no argument. 

If Russia&#039;s aim is to &quot;de-nazify&quot; the Ukraine rather than to occupy it, which is what Russia has repeatedly said, then seizing control of entire cities would seem to be an unnecessary tactic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All very true. Still, the underlying assumption is that the attackers want to go mano-a-mano with the defenders.  Modern warfare, such as NATO used when it invaded Serbia, can cut off electric power, water, communications — a more effective form of the ancient tactic of besieging a city until the residents starved and surrendered.</p>
<p>Russia in the Ukraine seems to have generally eschewed NATO tactics, presumably to minimize casualties among civilians with whom Russia has no argument. </p>
<p>If Russia&#8217;s aim is to &#8220;de-nazify&#8221; the Ukraine rather than to occupy it, which is what Russia has repeatedly said, then seizing control of entire cities would seem to be an unnecessary tactic.</p>
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