“In truth neither Hitler, the High Command nor the general staffs of the Army, Navy and Air Force had ever seriously considered how a war with Great Britain could be fought and won.”

I said that was nonsense and still say it was nonsense. They had a plan, but it didn’t work. That they were almost successful in WWI is exactly why they tried it in WWII.

You are trying to negate what I said by changing the subject to be “that they failed to do so” which is a different thing altogether from saying they had no plan.

They built a vast number of subs, but they were sunk, because the British broke their codes, and they had radar to find the subs. In response, which I linked, the Germans built a sub with stealth mast for the periscopes and air intakes and a huge battery storage that would give them a large range. It was also the first ever sub designed to stay underwater all the time.

“And the V-weapons were not a plan to defeat anyone.”

“If” their plan had worked, which it didn’t, stopping food and arms reaching England, combined with a continuous rain of 1,000 kg bombs raining down on peoples heads is a plan to demoralize the British and make them sue for peace. That they couldn’t make enough to be decisive or have the resources to do so doesn’t negate the fact that was what they were planning and doing. And without US food, materials, supplies and Men it would have probably worked.

They had assembly lines for the V2, and the V3 was close to being finished. The V3 would have multiplied the amount of bombs dropping on London by a huge amount. Really large numbers, but it was destroyed.

It didn’t work because the US came in with enough air power, men, and materiel to stop it.

And don’t take this to mean that I in any way am denying the British of their sacrifice and determination, but it doesn’t change the fact that without the endless stream of resources the US brought to the war, it’s very likely the British would have lost or made peace with Hitler.

The UK came closer to starving in WW1 than WW2. The UK had large programs for escorts and had spent a lot of time working on the problem. They could have defeated the threat on their own not much later than they did with US assistance. And by the time the Type 21s came out, there were just far too many escorts.

And the V-weapons were not a plan to defeat anyone.

This is silly. Why would they want to invade England? They built a vast submarine fleet and until the US got involved were close to creating starvation in England. Towards the end of the war the Germans made a sub that most all after have followed it’s example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Type_XXI_submarine

Let’s not mention the V1,V2 and V3 cannon and rockets. They had a plan but not the resources to carry it out.

There was a lot they could do. They could invade Germany. Almost the whole German army was in the east. They could have taken the industrial heartland and crippled Germany’s ability to fight. They chose not to.

They considered declaring war on Stalin. They decided they didn’t need two enemies. There’s a reason Stalin waited until the Polish state was all but gone to take his share.

Cassander — that is exactly the point. The English and French could do nothing to stop Germany in Poland. That is why their Declaration of War was the start of the Phony War — which stayed Phony until Hitler decided he could not go East without first subduing the countries which had declared war on him in the West.

I understand this is painful for a lot of people, because we were all brought up with the “Good War” thesis. Just dig into the history, and make up your own mind.

Ask yourself — England & France declared war on Germany because it invaded Poland. Stalin invaded Poland too at the same time, and actually took more than half of Polish territory. Why did England & France have no problem with the USSR invading Poland?

Yes, really, Lucky. Do some research. After the end of fighting in World War One, the English continued their blockade of the Central European Powers. People starved in Europe. Europe, then as now, required imports of food. Especially then, since farm workers had been drafted into the military and agriculture had suffered.

The Allied treatment of Germany & Austria after World War One was foolishly harsh. John Maynard Keynes (heard of him?) wrote at the time in “The Economic Consequences of the Peace” that the Treaty of Versailles would lead to further war.

That is not to excuse Hitler, who definitely was a Black Hat. But so were so many other people on all sides of World War Two.

Really!? Since when did continental Europe need food from elsewhere?

The fault was not in the Allied grand strategy; it was in the Allied military competence and fate. If Georges had not been hit in the assassination of Yugoslav King Alexander and had a long recovery, he might have been at the helm of the Allied armies in 1940 instead of Gamelin. He did not fancy sending the best French Army North and in Belgium Netherlands so the Battle of France should have been different.

I second the idea that Stalin attacking does not fit Soviet behavior after the French defeat. They continued to collaborate actively with the Nazis. In May 1941 the American Communists were releasing music to support isolationism. Communist Unions were sabotaging the British war effort like they did in French industries. The Soviet Union was at Germany’s side until the German attack.

Let me direct you to my earlier statement: “Perhaps the story of WWII is a reminder that no plan…survives contact with the enemy.” And that applies to everyone — English, French, Norwegian, Latvian, Soviet.

For so many years, I subscribed to the “Good War” thesis about WWII. Then I started to read more widely, and realized there was a lack of White Hats in reality.

Britain & France were then colonial empires, happily exploiting little brown people around the world. They officially started the war to protect Poland, and ended the war by abandoning the Polish people to Stalin. Even if we credit the English & French with good intentions with respect to Polish independence, they were so incompetent that issuing an empty Declaration of War was the only thing they could do in 1939, triggering the Phony War; they had no physical ability to do anything constructive to help Poland when it was invaded by both Germany and the USSR.

Germany and Austria had been very badly treated by the Allies after WWI — with the English maintaining a trade embargo after the end of the war which led to starvation in Europe. Hitler was undoubtedly a bad guy, but the Allies had provided the genuine grievances which he was able to exploit. The pusillanimous English & French had then stood aside while Hitler & his military started their expansion, with the aim of pulling all the German-speaking people into one state.

I can understand why someone like Hitler might think that English & French objections to Germany reclaiming the majority-German city of Danzig from Poland were probably empty words. I can also understand strategically why a dictator who intended to go East decided he first had to slap down the Phony Warriors on his Western front.

The roles of both FDR and Stalin in promoting world war also have to be recognized. No White Hats!