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	<title>Comments on: He had never seen any troops so inept at first as Americans in battle</title>
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	<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2020/09/he-had-never-seen-any-troops-so-inept-at-first-as-americans-in-battle/</link>
	<description>From the ancient Greek for equality in freedom of speech; an eclectic mix of thoughts, large and small</description>
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		<title>By: RLVC</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2020/09/he-had-never-seen-any-troops-so-inept-at-first-as-americans-in-battle/comment-page-1/#comment-3248662</link>
		<dc:creator>RLVC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Sep 2020 01:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=47033#comment-3248662</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[https://youtube.com/watch?v=PmILOL55xP0]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="https://youtube.com/watch?v=PmILOL55xP0" >https://youtube.com/watch?v=PmILOL55xP0</a></p>
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		<title>By: Kirk</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2020/09/he-had-never-seen-any-troops-so-inept-at-first-as-americans-in-battle/comment-page-1/#comment-3248556</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2020 19:41:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=47033#comment-3248556</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There are more than a few definitions of the term &quot;disciplined&quot;, most of which differ due to cultural conditions interpreted by the users.

Fehrenbach&#039;s ideation of the term is typical of mid-century America--He wanted a &quot;thinking obedience&quot;, not rote-obedience that we have been taught to think was typical of the Prussian tradition. 

Which was a very inaccurate understanding of the German mindset in these matters--Most of the so-called &quot;Prussian &lt;i&gt;kadavergehorsam&lt;/i&gt; mentality was a figment of Anglo-Saxon imagination. If you went to examine Prussian education and military doctrine, you&#039;d find quite the opposite.

The key thing with what Fehrenbach is writing about is that whole Confucian thing: &lt;i&gt;&quot;To lead an untrained people to war is to throw them away&quot;.&lt;/i&gt;

All too many of the men under arms during the early and middle stages of the Korean War fit that description, and as a result, failed to demonstrate discipline.

Another quote: &lt;i&gt;&quot;In no other profession are the penalties for employing unprepared personnel so
appalling or so irrevocable as in the military.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s MacArthur himself, so you have to stand in wonder at the cognitive dissonance he was able to maintain and more-or-less function with. How did the man not know the conditions in his own forces?

And, it was ever thus--Vegetius: &lt;i&gt;&quot;In war, discipline is superior to strength; but if that discipline is neglected there is no
longer any difference between the soldier and the peasant.&quot; &lt;/i&gt;

My own definition of discipline is the observation of whether or not the necessities of unit housekeeping are getting done in the absence of leadership. In a well-disciplined unit, things like camouflage and digging in are accomplished by the troops without them being told to do so, because they know they need to do them and have the self-discipline to initiate the work themselves. In a poorly-disciplined unit, nothing happens until the leadership exerts itself, which takes away from their ability to do their jobs, which sure as hell better not be to tell people what they need to do in order to survive...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are more than a few definitions of the term &#8220;disciplined&#8221;, most of which differ due to cultural conditions interpreted by the users.</p>
<p>Fehrenbach&#8217;s ideation of the term is typical of mid-century America&#8211;He wanted a &#8220;thinking obedience&#8221;, not rote-obedience that we have been taught to think was typical of the Prussian tradition. </p>
<p>Which was a very inaccurate understanding of the German mindset in these matters&#8211;Most of the so-called &#8220;Prussian <i>kadavergehorsam</i> mentality was a figment of Anglo-Saxon imagination. If you went to examine Prussian education and military doctrine, you&#8217;d find quite the opposite.</p>
<p>The key thing with what Fehrenbach is writing about is that whole Confucian thing: <i>&#8220;To lead an untrained people to war is to throw them away&#8221;.</i></p>
<p>All too many of the men under arms during the early and middle stages of the Korean War fit that description, and as a result, failed to demonstrate discipline.</p>
<p>Another quote: <i>&#8220;In no other profession are the penalties for employing unprepared personnel so<br />
appalling or so irrevocable as in the military.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>That&#8217;s MacArthur himself, so you have to stand in wonder at the cognitive dissonance he was able to maintain and more-or-less function with. How did the man not know the conditions in his own forces?</p>
<p>And, it was ever thus&#8211;Vegetius: <i>&#8220;In war, discipline is superior to strength; but if that discipline is neglected there is no<br />
longer any difference between the soldier and the peasant.&#8221; </i></p>
<p>My own definition of discipline is the observation of whether or not the necessities of unit housekeeping are getting done in the absence of leadership. In a well-disciplined unit, things like camouflage and digging in are accomplished by the troops without them being told to do so, because they know they need to do them and have the self-discipline to initiate the work themselves. In a poorly-disciplined unit, nothing happens until the leadership exerts itself, which takes away from their ability to do their jobs, which sure as hell better not be to tell people what they need to do in order to survive&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Harry Jones</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2020/09/he-had-never-seen-any-troops-so-inept-at-first-as-americans-in-battle/comment-page-1/#comment-3248231</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Sep 2020 13:29:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=47033#comment-3248231</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Only when disciplined to obey orders quickly and willingly, can such fear be controlled.&quot;

So... the whole point of mindless obedience is to counter another sort of mindlessness, arguably worse? That makes a sad kind of sense.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Only when disciplined to obey orders quickly and willingly, can such fear be controlled.&#8221;</p>
<p>So&#8230; the whole point of mindless obedience is to counter another sort of mindlessness, arguably worse? That makes a sad kind of sense.</p>
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