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	<title>Comments on: It was so much darker than we imagine</title>
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	<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/11/it-was-so-much-darker-than-we-imagine/</link>
	<description>From the ancient Greek for equality in freedom of speech; an eclectic mix of thoughts, large and small</description>
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		<title>By: Harry Jones</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/11/it-was-so-much-darker-than-we-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-3013561</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Nov 2019 13:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=45779#comment-3013561</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fair enough, but several much better spots were to be had within a hundred mile radius. They might have done a bit of scouting before committing to that spot.

If the weather were bad, they could have wintered at that sorry excuse for a harbor and then sailed around the neighborhood come springtime.

Or maybe the natives were a problem, and they had to settle for a place where the natives were too weak and demoralized to put up a fuss, rather than face the ones who had beaten the Plymouth locals. But a few years later, those natives were weak, too. Plymouth by all rights should have been a temporary stop.

Well, at least they didn&#039;t settle at P-town.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fair enough, but several much better spots were to be had within a hundred mile radius. They might have done a bit of scouting before committing to that spot.</p>
<p>If the weather were bad, they could have wintered at that sorry excuse for a harbor and then sailed around the neighborhood come springtime.</p>
<p>Or maybe the natives were a problem, and they had to settle for a place where the natives were too weak and demoralized to put up a fuss, rather than face the ones who had beaten the Plymouth locals. But a few years later, those natives were weak, too. Plymouth by all rights should have been a temporary stop.</p>
<p>Well, at least they didn&#8217;t settle at P-town.</p>
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		<title>By: John Harrison</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/11/it-was-so-much-darker-than-we-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-3013514</link>
		<dc:creator>John Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Nov 2019 01:29:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[They did not have the benefit of satellite imagery in selecting their colony site.  The selection at the map stores of the time were likewise atrocious.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They did not have the benefit of satellite imagery in selecting their colony site.  The selection at the map stores of the time were likewise atrocious.</p>
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		<title>By: Harry Jones</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/11/it-was-so-much-darker-than-we-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-3013480</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Nov 2019 20:03:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=45779#comment-3013480</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A lot of arguments over history would just go away if we could accept that no one is without sin and no one&#039;s motives are as pure as the driven snow.

But most arguments about history are really about ideology. And ideology needs to idolize and demonize. Shades of gray just don&#039;t work for rhetorical purposes.

I believe Salem was a much better spot for a colony than Plymouth. It had a better harbor and better soil. The whole Plymouth area just never had much potential.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of arguments over history would just go away if we could accept that no one is without sin and no one&#8217;s motives are as pure as the driven snow.</p>
<p>But most arguments about history are really about ideology. And ideology needs to idolize and demonize. Shades of gray just don&#8217;t work for rhetorical purposes.</p>
<p>I believe Salem was a much better spot for a colony than Plymouth. It had a better harbor and better soil. The whole Plymouth area just never had much potential.</p>
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		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/11/it-was-so-much-darker-than-we-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-3013477</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Nov 2019 19:38:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Beware Greeks bearing gifts.

Though if in any given scenario you are the Greeks, offer gifts. It works with less genre-savvy adversaries.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beware Greeks bearing gifts.</p>
<p>Though if in any given scenario you are the Greeks, offer gifts. It works with less genre-savvy adversaries.</p>
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		<title>By: Ezra</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/11/it-was-so-much-darker-than-we-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-3013450</link>
		<dc:creator>Ezra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Nov 2019 16:43:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Massasoit the American Indian chief was friendly with the newcomers. And as you might suspect not from altruistic reasons. The trible of Massasoit had just lost a war with a neighboring tribe with the best of his [Massasoit] lands lost. 

Massasoit realized instantaneously that the advanced firepower of the Pilgrims could be put to good use and signed a mutual defense treaty, English and American Indian. 

Massasoit wanted his best lands back and who cares he gets them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Massasoit the American Indian chief was friendly with the newcomers. And as you might suspect not from altruistic reasons. The trible of Massasoit had just lost a war with a neighboring tribe with the best of his [Massasoit] lands lost. </p>
<p>Massasoit realized instantaneously that the advanced firepower of the Pilgrims could be put to good use and signed a mutual defense treaty, English and American Indian. </p>
<p>Massasoit wanted his best lands back and who cares he gets them.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/11/it-was-so-much-darker-than-we-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-3013438</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Nov 2019 15:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=45779#comment-3013438</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting. As an outsider in particular, the history of Plymouth just merged into the general history of Massachusetts and Boston for me. I had no idea what became of the original settlement as such.

Salem would probably be the same, if not for the witches. 

I never visited Plymouth, but I took the train from Boston to Salem 20 years ago.

I learned quite a bit more about Salem than the witches: the Hawthorne connection, the maritime history, the sheer geographic scope of its ships&#039; reach and the town&#039;s wealth into the 19th century.  Compared to that, the town was lovely and well appointed, but there was SFA sign of its once world-spanning commercial prominence. You really would have to squint to see the ghostly images in the empty harbour. That was an education in and of itself.

I recommend the trip, though. The town really was nice, even in December.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting. As an outsider in particular, the history of Plymouth just merged into the general history of Massachusetts and Boston for me. I had no idea what became of the original settlement as such.</p>
<p>Salem would probably be the same, if not for the witches. </p>
<p>I never visited Plymouth, but I took the train from Boston to Salem 20 years ago.</p>
<p>I learned quite a bit more about Salem than the witches: the Hawthorne connection, the maritime history, the sheer geographic scope of its ships&#8217; reach and the town&#8217;s wealth into the 19th century.  Compared to that, the town was lovely and well appointed, but there was SFA sign of its once world-spanning commercial prominence. You really would have to squint to see the ghostly images in the empty harbour. That was an education in and of itself.</p>
<p>I recommend the trip, though. The town really was nice, even in December.</p>
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		<title>By: Harry Jones</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/11/it-was-so-much-darker-than-we-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-3013433</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Nov 2019 15:23:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=45779#comment-3013433</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve been to Plymouth, Massachusetts. It was a sad little tourist trap on the way to the Cape, surrounded by uninhabited forest.

The colony never amounted to anything at all. In a way, that&#039;s sadder than a clean, honest failure.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been to Plymouth, Massachusetts. It was a sad little tourist trap on the way to the Cape, surrounded by uninhabited forest.</p>
<p>The colony never amounted to anything at all. In a way, that&#8217;s sadder than a clean, honest failure.</p>
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		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/11/it-was-so-much-darker-than-we-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-3013429</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Nov 2019 15:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=45779#comment-3013429</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Of course, pop culture now actually assumes every settler was a drooling, almost devil-worshipping slaver.  

There was a show about the witch trials a couple of years ago [Salem?] that confusingly portrayed the witches as real and actually in league with dark powers, and yet the trials and inquisition as [now inexplicably] also evil, tyrannical, and vaguely satanic. The entire colony was rife with magic and conspiracy. 

Naturally, one of the queen witches had an African slave-girl who also had gnarly magic powers redolent of the jungle, and who was at once portrayed as the avatar of all innocent slaves and a dark sorceress whose powers were the root of all evil in the New World. It was quite a melange of racist caricature and typical anti-slavery tropes of modern fantasy fiction. 

The whole thing more or less served to set up the entire history of America as a primal battle between good and evil, or two kinds of evil.

And over all, the dark forests of New England looming and brooding in solid Lovecraftian fashion. It was tiresome, but visually evocative.

I would also recommend the first couple of episodes of the otherwise tedious American Gods as illustration of this cultural take on the early colonial era, though only in fragments of what is otherwise a story set in modern times.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, pop culture now actually assumes every settler was a drooling, almost devil-worshipping slaver.  </p>
<p>There was a show about the witch trials a couple of years ago [Salem?] that confusingly portrayed the witches as real and actually in league with dark powers, and yet the trials and inquisition as [now inexplicably] also evil, tyrannical, and vaguely satanic. The entire colony was rife with magic and conspiracy. </p>
<p>Naturally, one of the queen witches had an African slave-girl who also had gnarly magic powers redolent of the jungle, and who was at once portrayed as the avatar of all innocent slaves and a dark sorceress whose powers were the root of all evil in the New World. It was quite a melange of racist caricature and typical anti-slavery tropes of modern fantasy fiction. </p>
<p>The whole thing more or less served to set up the entire history of America as a primal battle between good and evil, or two kinds of evil.</p>
<p>And over all, the dark forests of New England looming and brooding in solid Lovecraftian fashion. It was tiresome, but visually evocative.</p>
<p>I would also recommend the first couple of episodes of the otherwise tedious American Gods as illustration of this cultural take on the early colonial era, though only in fragments of what is otherwise a story set in modern times.</p>
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		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/11/it-was-so-much-darker-than-we-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-3013427</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Nov 2019 15:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=45779#comment-3013427</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While it&#039;s true that most people probably do just assume some lighthearted myths, if they think of the Pilgrims at all, this sounds like another &quot;Ken Burns breathlessly discovers things we already knew, but then presents them nicely.&quot;

I mean, Jesus, who unless wholly disinterested hadn&#039;t heard of the diseases wiping out Indians? Indian wars, even disease among settlers usually get namechecked in the most rudimentary history. 

It was the 17th century.

As for the Pilgrims&#039; beliefs, they were and have always been identified as religious radicals even by the standard of their time. I&#039;ve never heard otherwise except perhaps in A Child&#039;s Big book of Thanksgiving level stuff. Granted, they seem even more radical by the standards of today.

Sorry. This sort of pop history gives me a huge Aaaargh reaction.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While it&#8217;s true that most people probably do just assume some lighthearted myths, if they think of the Pilgrims at all, this sounds like another &#8220;Ken Burns breathlessly discovers things we already knew, but then presents them nicely.&#8221;</p>
<p>I mean, Jesus, who unless wholly disinterested hadn&#8217;t heard of the diseases wiping out Indians? Indian wars, even disease among settlers usually get namechecked in the most rudimentary history. </p>
<p>It was the 17th century.</p>
<p>As for the Pilgrims&#8217; beliefs, they were and have always been identified as religious radicals even by the standard of their time. I&#8217;ve never heard otherwise except perhaps in A Child&#8217;s Big book of Thanksgiving level stuff. Granted, they seem even more radical by the standards of today.</p>
<p>Sorry. This sort of pop history gives me a huge Aaaargh reaction.</p>
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