<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Indonesian killing technology was much simpler than that of the Nazis</title>
	<atom:link href="https://www.isegoria.net/2019/06/indonesian-killing-technology-was-much-simpler-than-that-of-the-nazis/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/06/indonesian-killing-technology-was-much-simpler-than-that-of-the-nazis/</link>
	<description>From the ancient Greek for equality in freedom of speech; an eclectic mix of thoughts, large and small</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 21 May 2026 16:19:21 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.6.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/06/indonesian-killing-technology-was-much-simpler-than-that-of-the-nazis/comment-page-1/#comment-2840107</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jun 2019 18:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=45242#comment-2840107</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[CVLR reminds me of something that political science and comparative history could usefully do, but likely has not: neutral comparative analysis of the many ways one group can penetrate and take over a society. I don&#039;t think they&#039;re all quite the same, as an MDM is not the same as colonialism or outright invasion. But there&#039;s a spectrum there and CVLR&#039;s comments about the economic and cultural versus the military power brought it to mind.

One can be an MDM, with varying degrees of influence and connections to crossborder networks, possibly even the loose sympathy of a home state or states, or other states, or even the backing of the host state, but always tenuous and never any one or more states under full control than can back you up, and your status and safety can wax and wane a lot over time.

You can be a new group that operates in similar ways, but may be organized under one or a few explicit business entities and with ties back to one or more actual states of your own people, still operating by sufferance of a powerful host state that sees advantage. Here I think of the East India Companies in India and Indonesia in their early days. Their means of accruing status, wealth and power has a lot to compare with that of true, comparatively stateless MDMS, but they have the option of leaving and some diplomatic backing in the crunch. 

Then you get the scenario in which that organized state starts to collapse and their is political, diplomatic, economic and military competition among successor states and entities. So your company raises an army locally and imports some home country muscle as well. You&#039;ve got quasi-native playa status with patents from the old government or comparable status, same as the real indigenes. So you play. Maybe win.

Then there is the sort of colonialism where organized indigenous states play no meaningful role. The colonizer imports everything and just sets up their shop and starts operating. Occasionally the indigenes are organized enough to oppose, but there is never much effort to pretend that the colonizer is operating an enterprise within, under, and legitimized by a local polity.

Then you get the real old school where you just invade the place and take it against coherent opposition.

I mean, I get that it&#039;s all bad, but still. It has to be more interesting study than yet another paper on the significance of gender fluidity on garden-agriculture output in ancient Uruk.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CVLR reminds me of something that political science and comparative history could usefully do, but likely has not: neutral comparative analysis of the many ways one group can penetrate and take over a society. I don&#8217;t think they&#8217;re all quite the same, as an MDM is not the same as colonialism or outright invasion. But there&#8217;s a spectrum there and CVLR&#8217;s comments about the economic and cultural versus the military power brought it to mind.</p>
<p>One can be an MDM, with varying degrees of influence and connections to crossborder networks, possibly even the loose sympathy of a home state or states, or other states, or even the backing of the host state, but always tenuous and never any one or more states under full control than can back you up, and your status and safety can wax and wane a lot over time.</p>
<p>You can be a new group that operates in similar ways, but may be organized under one or a few explicit business entities and with ties back to one or more actual states of your own people, still operating by sufferance of a powerful host state that sees advantage. Here I think of the East India Companies in India and Indonesia in their early days. Their means of accruing status, wealth and power has a lot to compare with that of true, comparatively stateless MDMS, but they have the option of leaving and some diplomatic backing in the crunch. </p>
<p>Then you get the scenario in which that organized state starts to collapse and their is political, diplomatic, economic and military competition among successor states and entities. So your company raises an army locally and imports some home country muscle as well. You&#8217;ve got quasi-native playa status with patents from the old government or comparable status, same as the real indigenes. So you play. Maybe win.</p>
<p>Then there is the sort of colonialism where organized indigenous states play no meaningful role. The colonizer imports everything and just sets up their shop and starts operating. Occasionally the indigenes are organized enough to oppose, but there is never much effort to pretend that the colonizer is operating an enterprise within, under, and legitimized by a local polity.</p>
<p>Then you get the real old school where you just invade the place and take it against coherent opposition.</p>
<p>I mean, I get that it&#8217;s all bad, but still. It has to be more interesting study than yet another paper on the significance of gender fluidity on garden-agriculture output in ancient Uruk.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/06/indonesian-killing-technology-was-much-simpler-than-that-of-the-nazis/comment-page-1/#comment-2840067</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jun 2019 18:08:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=45242#comment-2840067</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Also, this post keeps reminding me that as late as 1994 the Hutus reminded the world just what can be accomplished with Iron Age implements.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, this post keeps reminding me that as late as 1994 the Hutus reminded the world just what can be accomplished with Iron Age implements.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/06/indonesian-killing-technology-was-much-simpler-than-that-of-the-nazis/comment-page-1/#comment-2840065</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jun 2019 18:07:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=45242#comment-2840065</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Speaking of dark senses of humour, less robust than Kirk&#039;s but possibly more wrong, I can&#039;t keep seeing this headline without thinking of an early Simpsons episode, as I do, called &quot;The Secret War of Lisa Simpson&quot;.

Bart gets shipped off to military school, called Rommelwood. Motto: &quot;A Tradition of Heritage&quot;. Lisa insists on going too. This was back in the 90s when the sex segregation of VMI and The Citadel was a big thing.

Eventually, both she and Bart get medals for finishing the second grade. Bart gets another for the improvement of his &quot;academic and general killing skills&quot;. He whispers to Lisa, &quot;My killing teacher says I&#039;m a natural&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of dark senses of humour, less robust than Kirk&#8217;s but possibly more wrong, I can&#8217;t keep seeing this headline without thinking of an early Simpsons episode, as I do, called &#8220;The Secret War of Lisa Simpson&#8221;.</p>
<p>Bart gets shipped off to military school, called Rommelwood. Motto: &#8220;A Tradition of Heritage&#8221;. Lisa insists on going too. This was back in the 90s when the sex segregation of VMI and The Citadel was a big thing.</p>
<p>Eventually, both she and Bart get medals for finishing the second grade. Bart gets another for the improvement of his &#8220;academic and general killing skills&#8221;. He whispers to Lisa, &#8220;My killing teacher says I&#8217;m a natural&#8221;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: CVLR</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/06/indonesian-killing-technology-was-much-simpler-than-that-of-the-nazis/comment-page-1/#comment-2835450</link>
		<dc:creator>CVLR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2019 16:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=45242#comment-2835450</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kirk: “I’m also fairly certain that there will be a reckoning, at some point.”

And the wheel of history keeps on turning, without beginning nor end.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kirk: “I’m also fairly certain that there will be a reckoning, at some point.”</p>
<p>And the wheel of history keeps on turning, without beginning nor end.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: CVLR</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/06/indonesian-killing-technology-was-much-simpler-than-that-of-the-nazis/comment-page-1/#comment-2835445</link>
		<dc:creator>CVLR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jun 2019 16:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=45242#comment-2835445</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The plight of a &lt;i&gt;market-dominant minority&lt;/i&gt; is to be in one of the more interesting economic, social, moral, ethical, and philosophical positions, in my estimation.

On one hand, you’re smart and skilled and savvy enough to have cornered, against all odds, the financial (and possibly cultural) life of an alien country.

On the other, you don’t have the military initiative — you haven’t yet taken over the place and begun to run it like you would if you were a martial aristocracy above reproach. And you might never; it’s a very tough nut to crack.

It’s not impossible, but you do probably need support from either a proper central bank or outright foreign intervention, or both.

And beyond the practical “can I?” question, there’s the ethical “should I?” question. Do you, the fresh-faced and vigorous foreigner, have a right to take your heretofore host’s civilization and set about running it entirely for your own benefit?

If you adhere to the eternal precepts of the natural law, you do — if and only if you can make it stick.

The natives might protest, but who cares about them? No one weeps for the Amerindian. Plus, you can make up whatever justification you want — you’ll get to write the history. Manifest Destiny sounds pretty good.

Woe to the vanquished.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The plight of a <i>market-dominant minority</i> is to be in one of the more interesting economic, social, moral, ethical, and philosophical positions, in my estimation.</p>
<p>On one hand, you’re smart and skilled and savvy enough to have cornered, against all odds, the financial (and possibly cultural) life of an alien country.</p>
<p>On the other, you don’t have the military initiative — you haven’t yet taken over the place and begun to run it like you would if you were a martial aristocracy above reproach. And you might never; it’s a very tough nut to crack.</p>
<p>It’s not impossible, but you do probably need support from either a proper central bank or outright foreign intervention, or both.</p>
<p>And beyond the practical “can I?” question, there’s the ethical “should I?” question. Do you, the fresh-faced and vigorous foreigner, have a right to take your heretofore host’s civilization and set about running it entirely for your own benefit?</p>
<p>If you adhere to the eternal precepts of the natural law, you do — if and only if you can make it stick.</p>
<p>The natives might protest, but who cares about them? No one weeps for the Amerindian. Plus, you can make up whatever justification you want — you’ll get to write the history. Manifest Destiny sounds pretty good.</p>
<p>Woe to the vanquished.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/06/indonesian-killing-technology-was-much-simpler-than-that-of-the-nazis/comment-page-1/#comment-2831912</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2019 19:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=45242#comment-2831912</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There&#039;s an interesting point. I have no idea what PRC-Indonesia relations look like or whether there is a subtext that dates back to those times.

I mean, I know there are the usual SCS issues, but beyond that I have no idea what sticking points they have.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s an interesting point. I have no idea what PRC-Indonesia relations look like or whether there is a subtext that dates back to those times.</p>
<p>I mean, I know there are the usual SCS issues, but beyond that I have no idea what sticking points they have.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kirk</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/06/indonesian-killing-technology-was-much-simpler-than-that-of-the-nazis/comment-page-1/#comment-2831890</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2019 18:20:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=45242#comment-2831890</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Didn&#039;t make much difference to the ethnic Chinese, though...

I had an acquaintance with a survivor of those years, who&#039;d been a teenager when the whole &quot;anti-communist&quot; thing kicked off. The stories he had weren&#039;t too much different than the ones you&#039;d hear from a Jewish pogrom victim, either. His parents had been fairly prosperous shopkeepers, and he&#039;d had a large extended family, with about eight brothers and sisters.

When it was all over, he and an uncle who&#039;d been off the island for business were the only ones left alive. His mother and father had gotten to watch their kids tortured and burned to death in order for them to tell their neighbors where all the &quot;hidden gold&quot; was, which didn&#039;t exist. The people who did it were all &quot;friends and neighbors&quot; they&#039;d traded with for years, but who turned on them in a heartbeat.

He counted it up, and there were 70 or so family of his killed in those riots, mostly kids and old people. He and his uncle got out, and since there had been overseas investments and holdings the family had had in Singapore and Hong Kong, they were able to get out and survive until he was able to support himself. 

A lot of that sort of thing never made it into the &quot;official record&quot;, in much the same way the Turks deny the Armenian genocide.

I&#039;m sure that the folks running mainland China have not forgotten, though. I&#039;m also fairly certain that there will be a reckoning, at some point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Didn&#8217;t make much difference to the ethnic Chinese, though&#8230;</p>
<p>I had an acquaintance with a survivor of those years, who&#8217;d been a teenager when the whole &#8220;anti-communist&#8221; thing kicked off. The stories he had weren&#8217;t too much different than the ones you&#8217;d hear from a Jewish pogrom victim, either. His parents had been fairly prosperous shopkeepers, and he&#8217;d had a large extended family, with about eight brothers and sisters.</p>
<p>When it was all over, he and an uncle who&#8217;d been off the island for business were the only ones left alive. His mother and father had gotten to watch their kids tortured and burned to death in order for them to tell their neighbors where all the &#8220;hidden gold&#8221; was, which didn&#8217;t exist. The people who did it were all &#8220;friends and neighbors&#8221; they&#8217;d traded with for years, but who turned on them in a heartbeat.</p>
<p>He counted it up, and there were 70 or so family of his killed in those riots, mostly kids and old people. He and his uncle got out, and since there had been overseas investments and holdings the family had had in Singapore and Hong Kong, they were able to get out and survive until he was able to support himself. </p>
<p>A lot of that sort of thing never made it into the &#8220;official record&#8221;, in much the same way the Turks deny the Armenian genocide.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure that the folks running mainland China have not forgotten, though. I&#8217;m also fairly certain that there will be a reckoning, at some point.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/06/indonesian-killing-technology-was-much-simpler-than-that-of-the-nazis/comment-page-1/#comment-2831888</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2019 18:11:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=45242#comment-2831888</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You&#039;ve reminded me that I still haven&#039;t read Amy Chua&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;https://amzn.to/2Rh5fvr&quot;&gt;World on Fire&lt;/a&gt;, about &lt;em&gt;market-dominant minorities&lt;/em&gt; like the Chinese in Southeast Asia.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ve reminded me that I still haven&#8217;t read Amy Chua&#8217;s <a href="https://amzn.to/2Rh5fvr">World on Fire</a>, about <em>market-dominant minorities</em> like the Chinese in Southeast Asia.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: CVLR</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/06/indonesian-killing-technology-was-much-simpler-than-that-of-the-nazis/comment-page-1/#comment-2831884</link>
		<dc:creator>CVLR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2019 17:56:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=45242#comment-2831884</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To be fair to the Germans, the Indonesians weren’t perennially blockaded, beset by epidemic typhus, and critically short of soap.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be fair to the Germans, the Indonesians weren’t perennially blockaded, beset by epidemic typhus, and critically short of soap.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kirk</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/06/indonesian-killing-technology-was-much-simpler-than-that-of-the-nazis/comment-page-1/#comment-2831862</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jun 2019 16:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=45242#comment-2831862</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It would be interesting to be able to trace back where that thread of nihilistic murderousness comes from, with the Communists. Was that a continuation of themes brought forward from the precursor Russian anarchists that made life miserable for the Romanovs, or is it an artifact of the actual belief? What about communism as a movement encourages this crap? Where did it come from?

You go looking at things, and it&#039;s widespread throughout Europe before Marx really took off--The &quot;bomb-throwing anarchist&quot; has been with us a long time, and the big-C Communists just co-opted them

What I would speculate is that the belief system attracts sociopaths, ones who are usually failures in their own cultures, and who seek a path to power. I&#039;d hesitate to diagnose an entire movement, but my observation has always been that the Communists are generally will-to-power types that aren&#039;t much good for anything past killing and blowing things up, Socialists are usually dreamy idiots with no idea how things actually work, and the rest of us are unwilling bystanders to these morons working out their mommy and daddy issues on the world at large.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be interesting to be able to trace back where that thread of nihilistic murderousness comes from, with the Communists. Was that a continuation of themes brought forward from the precursor Russian anarchists that made life miserable for the Romanovs, or is it an artifact of the actual belief? What about communism as a movement encourages this crap? Where did it come from?</p>
<p>You go looking at things, and it&#8217;s widespread throughout Europe before Marx really took off&#8211;The &#8220;bomb-throwing anarchist&#8221; has been with us a long time, and the big-C Communists just co-opted them</p>
<p>What I would speculate is that the belief system attracts sociopaths, ones who are usually failures in their own cultures, and who seek a path to power. I&#8217;d hesitate to diagnose an entire movement, but my observation has always been that the Communists are generally will-to-power types that aren&#8217;t much good for anything past killing and blowing things up, Socialists are usually dreamy idiots with no idea how things actually work, and the rest of us are unwilling bystanders to these morons working out their mommy and daddy issues on the world at large.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
