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	<title>Comments on: They were veterans before they started</title>
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	<description>From the ancient Greek for equality in freedom of speech; an eclectic mix of thoughts, large and small</description>
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		<title>By: Kirk</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/05/they-were-veterans-before-they-started/comment-page-1/#comment-2786287</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 May 2019 19:33:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=44896#comment-2786287</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fat-fingered that NTC rotation number... Should be &quot;two weeks&quot;, not &quot;three&quot;. It&#039;d only be three if you counted the prep week spent in the cantonment area drawing equipment and doing your arrival/organization deal. For an O/C, the rotation lasted 3 weeks, since you didn&#039;t really give a damn about what the players were doing during their redeployment phase. Total rotation time for the players would thus be four weeks--one arrival/setup, one doing force-on-force with the OPFOR folks, one doing live fire battle with the Plywoodian enemy up north, and then a fourth week of &quot;lets-get-the-hell-out-of-here&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fat-fingered that NTC rotation number&#8230; Should be &#8220;two weeks&#8221;, not &#8220;three&#8221;. It&#8217;d only be three if you counted the prep week spent in the cantonment area drawing equipment and doing your arrival/organization deal. For an O/C, the rotation lasted 3 weeks, since you didn&#8217;t really give a damn about what the players were doing during their redeployment phase. Total rotation time for the players would thus be four weeks&#8211;one arrival/setup, one doing force-on-force with the OPFOR folks, one doing live fire battle with the Plywoodian enemy up north, and then a fourth week of &#8220;lets-get-the-hell-out-of-here&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Kirk</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/05/they-were-veterans-before-they-started/comment-page-1/#comment-2786278</link>
		<dc:creator>Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 May 2019 19:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=44896#comment-2786278</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My take on the Marines in WWII was that, outside the Marine Raiders and Evans Carlson, they mostly decided that they were a hammer, and went looking for nails to pound flat.

It&#039;s interesting to observe that Carlson&#039;s experience with the Communists in China led almost directly to one of the most enduring and successful small unit structures in the US military, the Marine Rifle Squad. 13 men, three fire teams, one leader--And, all based of his experiences in China as an observer with the Communists.

The Marine squad is a structure I have a lot of admiration for--You can run it one up, two back when you&#039;re expecting trouble, and two up, one back when not, and then deal with things as they appear. The four-man fire team is more resilient, has more redundancy, and it gives an experienced senior squad leader a lot of manpower with which to do the job--And, on top of that, it&#039;s much more loss-resistant than the idiotic seven- or nine-man squad of the army, with it&#039;s two team structure.

During one of the downturns that I dealt with, we had to mothball one of our squads in our platoon, due to a shortage of good NCOs. We wound up going to two squads with three fire teams each, and it was amazing to me how much more I could get done than with two, out in the field.

The Army&#039;s essential inability to grasp that manpower down at the lowest level is as critical as it is remains a subject of much befuddlement to me. It seems as though they never really thought a lot of these things through, or tested them. There was a thing called the Engineer Restructuring Initiative back in the 90s, which put an Engineer battalion out in every maneuver brigade--Which was fine, if you were worried about staffing for officers. Actual worker bees, out doing stuff? LOL... I counted noses, when I was an Observer/Controller at the NTC, once: The Second Lieutenant running an ERI platoon actually had fewer dismounts capable of doing work than I had as a Corporal running a squad during the mid-1980s, once you subtracted all the vehicle drivers and other impedimential manpower losses. That poor kid was lucky to have two-three dismounts per APC to do the work of emplacing or removing obstacles. Back in the day, when my truck pulled up to lay a minefield, there were 9 guys in the back of my truck to do things with, and that was if I had someone detached to be doing KP. Effectively, all that ERI really did was vastly increase the overhead, and slots for the commissioned folk. Which, come to think of it, may have been the point...

Oh, and for a comparison...? Circa 1986, during an exercise up around Fulda, my squad got something like 600 mines laid in one night. Ideal conditions, mostly in one minefield, and using the simplified procedures for row mining. That&#039;s emplaced, properly recorded, and turned over to the overwatching unit. One night.

I never saw an entire platoon, inclusive of three squad leaders, a platoon sergeant, and a second lieutenant, manage more than maybe 200-300 over the course of an entire National Training Center rotation, which lasts three weeks. These were post-ERI units, which theoretically bumped up the Engineer support to the maneuver units from the old &quot;one company per brigade&quot; to the &quot;one battalion to brigade&quot;. While there were, on paper, bigger units, the actual number of men down at the coal face actually went down...

Which may be an indicator for what went wrong with the Army during the Clinton years. The theory was, we were going to replace the manpower with all this high-tech (comparatively...) equipment, but that equipment never actually got procured, let alone issued to the units. But, the cuts to the manpower happened almost instantaneously. 

There are reasons I hold the contemptuous view that I do for most of the &quot;geniuses&quot; we had running things then, and now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My take on the Marines in WWII was that, outside the Marine Raiders and Evans Carlson, they mostly decided that they were a hammer, and went looking for nails to pound flat.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting to observe that Carlson&#8217;s experience with the Communists in China led almost directly to one of the most enduring and successful small unit structures in the US military, the Marine Rifle Squad. 13 men, three fire teams, one leader&#8211;And, all based of his experiences in China as an observer with the Communists.</p>
<p>The Marine squad is a structure I have a lot of admiration for&#8211;You can run it one up, two back when you&#8217;re expecting trouble, and two up, one back when not, and then deal with things as they appear. The four-man fire team is more resilient, has more redundancy, and it gives an experienced senior squad leader a lot of manpower with which to do the job&#8211;And, on top of that, it&#8217;s much more loss-resistant than the idiotic seven- or nine-man squad of the army, with it&#8217;s two team structure.</p>
<p>During one of the downturns that I dealt with, we had to mothball one of our squads in our platoon, due to a shortage of good NCOs. We wound up going to two squads with three fire teams each, and it was amazing to me how much more I could get done than with two, out in the field.</p>
<p>The Army&#8217;s essential inability to grasp that manpower down at the lowest level is as critical as it is remains a subject of much befuddlement to me. It seems as though they never really thought a lot of these things through, or tested them. There was a thing called the Engineer Restructuring Initiative back in the 90s, which put an Engineer battalion out in every maneuver brigade&#8211;Which was fine, if you were worried about staffing for officers. Actual worker bees, out doing stuff? LOL&#8230; I counted noses, when I was an Observer/Controller at the NTC, once: The Second Lieutenant running an ERI platoon actually had fewer dismounts capable of doing work than I had as a Corporal running a squad during the mid-1980s, once you subtracted all the vehicle drivers and other impedimential manpower losses. That poor kid was lucky to have two-three dismounts per APC to do the work of emplacing or removing obstacles. Back in the day, when my truck pulled up to lay a minefield, there were 9 guys in the back of my truck to do things with, and that was if I had someone detached to be doing KP. Effectively, all that ERI really did was vastly increase the overhead, and slots for the commissioned folk. Which, come to think of it, may have been the point&#8230;</p>
<p>Oh, and for a comparison&#8230;? Circa 1986, during an exercise up around Fulda, my squad got something like 600 mines laid in one night. Ideal conditions, mostly in one minefield, and using the simplified procedures for row mining. That&#8217;s emplaced, properly recorded, and turned over to the overwatching unit. One night.</p>
<p>I never saw an entire platoon, inclusive of three squad leaders, a platoon sergeant, and a second lieutenant, manage more than maybe 200-300 over the course of an entire National Training Center rotation, which lasts three weeks. These were post-ERI units, which theoretically bumped up the Engineer support to the maneuver units from the old &#8220;one company per brigade&#8221; to the &#8220;one battalion to brigade&#8221;. While there were, on paper, bigger units, the actual number of men down at the coal face actually went down&#8230;</p>
<p>Which may be an indicator for what went wrong with the Army during the Clinton years. The theory was, we were going to replace the manpower with all this high-tech (comparatively&#8230;) equipment, but that equipment never actually got procured, let alone issued to the units. But, the cuts to the manpower happened almost instantaneously. </p>
<p>There are reasons I hold the contemptuous view that I do for most of the &#8220;geniuses&#8221; we had running things then, and now.</p>
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		<title>By: lucklucky</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/05/they-were-veterans-before-they-started/comment-page-1/#comment-2786215</link>
		<dc:creator>lucklucky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 May 2019 18:29:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=44896#comment-2786215</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Even if a book like “Italian Special Forces of WWII” existed in 1948, for Dunlap to even know about it would have been more or less a fluke.&quot;

Strangely he did know about San Marco which were more obscure, the only operation of note even that with other axis forces was contributing to the failure of operation &quot;Agreement&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Even if a book like “Italian Special Forces of WWII” existed in 1948, for Dunlap to even know about it would have been more or less a fluke.&#8221;</p>
<p>Strangely he did know about San Marco which were more obscure, the only operation of note even that with other axis forces was contributing to the failure of operation &#8220;Agreement&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/05/they-were-veterans-before-they-started/comment-page-1/#comment-2785165</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 May 2019 02:20:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=44896#comment-2785165</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, even for stuff that leaks out to soldiers in a theatre or even that eventually makes it to the press, it took years for these things to spread around and get collated even in memoirs and official histories and the first few pop histories after the war. Dunlap actually seems well informed about things beyond his trade and hos own service, doing a very good job particularly for a man who served in an enlisted role and putting it altogether so soon after the war. He did serve in a range of theatres that was impressive.

I have been wondering how many, even in the far flung US forces (farther flung in greater numbers than the British) served so widely. I suppose more than I think.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, even for stuff that leaks out to soldiers in a theatre or even that eventually makes it to the press, it took years for these things to spread around and get collated even in memoirs and official histories and the first few pop histories after the war. Dunlap actually seems well informed about things beyond his trade and hos own service, doing a very good job particularly for a man who served in an enlisted role and putting it altogether so soon after the war. He did serve in a range of theatres that was impressive.</p>
<p>I have been wondering how many, even in the far flung US forces (farther flung in greater numbers than the British) served so widely. I suppose more than I think.</p>
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		<title>By: TRX</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/05/they-were-veterans-before-they-started/comment-page-1/#comment-2785126</link>
		<dc:creator>TRX</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 May 2019 01:45:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=44896#comment-2785126</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;“Seems Dunlap does not know much about the subject.”&lt;/em&gt;

There were probably *dozens* of American soldiers who knew more.  And maybe that many reports filed in obscure places in DC and various military academies.

Even if a book like &quot;Italian Special Forces of WWII&quot; existed in 1948, for Dunlap to even know about it would have been more or less a fluke.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>“Seems Dunlap does not know much about the subject.”</em></p>
<p>There were probably *dozens* of American soldiers who knew more.  And maybe that many reports filed in obscure places in DC and various military academies.</p>
<p>Even if a book like &#8220;Italian Special Forces of WWII&#8221; existed in 1948, for Dunlap to even know about it would have been more or less a fluke.</p>
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		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/05/they-were-veterans-before-they-started/comment-page-1/#comment-2784836</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 May 2019 21:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=44896#comment-2784836</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, some of the most impressive SOF feats of the war. Even without reading that I can recall reading many times of the sinking of HMS Valiant [battleship] at either Alexandria or Port Said, and possibly another ship, using human torpedoes.

The Italians had men who knew how to fight and had serious skills.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, some of the most impressive SOF feats of the war. Even without reading that I can recall reading many times of the sinking of HMS Valiant [battleship] at either Alexandria or Port Said, and possibly another ship, using human torpedoes.</p>
<p>The Italians had men who knew how to fight and had serious skills.</p>
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		<title>By: Lucklucky</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/05/they-were-veterans-before-they-started/comment-page-1/#comment-2784769</link>
		<dc:creator>Lucklucky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 May 2019 20:39:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The closest thing Italy had to special units comparable with other nations’ were the San Marco Marines, a semi-naval force, somewhat like our own Marines.&quot;

Seems Dunlap does not know much about the subject.
Italian started the naval special operations in WW1 and followed in WW2 in what an American can call the first SEALs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decima_Flottiglia_MAS]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The closest thing Italy had to special units comparable with other nations’ were the San Marco Marines, a semi-naval force, somewhat like our own Marines.&#8221;</p>
<p>Seems Dunlap does not know much about the subject.<br />
Italian started the naval special operations in WW1 and followed in WW2 in what an American can call the first SEALs</p>
<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decima_Flottiglia_MAS" >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decima_Flottiglia_MAS</a></p>
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		<title>By: Lu An Li</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2019/05/they-were-veterans-before-they-started/comment-page-1/#comment-2784503</link>
		<dc:creator>Lu An Li</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 May 2019 15:28:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://www.isegoria.net/?p=44896#comment-2784503</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;the Nips built up a strong point [Tarawa] and dared the Marine Corps to try and take it, and the Marines could not take the dare.&quot;

Marines could not RESIST to take the dare.

But nobody could ever have foreseen it was going to be that bad.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;the Nips built up a strong point [Tarawa] and dared the Marine Corps to try and take it, and the Marines could not take the dare.&#8221;</p>
<p>Marines could not RESIST to take the dare.</p>
<p>But nobody could ever have foreseen it was going to be that bad.</p>
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