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	<title>Comments on: He will break up the fight before they kill more men than they can afford</title>
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	<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2017/12/he-will-break-up-the-fight-before-they-kill-more-men-than-they-can-afford/</link>
	<description>From the ancient Greek for equality in freedom of speech; an eclectic mix of thoughts, large and small</description>
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		<title>By: T. Greer</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2017/12/he-will-break-up-the-fight-before-they-kill-more-men-than-they-can-afford/comment-page-1/#comment-2599028</link>
		<dc:creator>T. Greer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Dec 2017 07:42:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=42726#comment-2599028</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One has to be careful with the sagas. By definition, they tell the stories of when the system when it was not working right. They pass over the peaceful years--sometimes decades!--in the stories as something too boring to talk about. 


As a system for providing &lt;i&gt;prosperity&lt;/i&gt;, the Icelandic laws and norms worked pretty well (better than most big empires or petty kingdoms of the middle ages). As a system for providing &lt;i&gt;justice&lt;/i&gt; they worked less well. It was a system in which might made right, and if your side was mighty enough you had no need to stick to the rules. A lot of what went down was really just power politics. 

This is hardly unique to iceland of course. But not quite the idyl that Alexander describes. 

The other thing that Alaxander/Friendman doesn&#039;t really seem to care about--but which Miller does--was the overwhelming importance of &lt;i&gt;honor&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;face&lt;/i&gt; in this system. So contrary to Alexander&#039;s claim that most people would bow out before the charge of outlawry was laid, plenty of people would accept the claim in name of honor and fight all comers who came. Millar has given a lot of careful thought to why people in honor cultures do what they do. His legal analysis is a Schellingesque, but he takes emotions far more seriously than economist types would. He is Schelling meets Gavin de Becker meets a crusty Oxford professor of Old English.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One has to be careful with the sagas. By definition, they tell the stories of when the system when it was not working right. They pass over the peaceful years&#8211;sometimes decades!&#8211;in the stories as something too boring to talk about. </p>
<p>As a system for providing <i>prosperity</i>, the Icelandic laws and norms worked pretty well (better than most big empires or petty kingdoms of the middle ages). As a system for providing <i>justice</i> they worked less well. It was a system in which might made right, and if your side was mighty enough you had no need to stick to the rules. A lot of what went down was really just power politics. </p>
<p>This is hardly unique to iceland of course. But not quite the idyl that Alexander describes. </p>
<p>The other thing that Alaxander/Friendman doesn&#8217;t really seem to care about&#8211;but which Miller does&#8211;was the overwhelming importance of <i>honor</i> and <i>face</i> in this system. So contrary to Alexander&#8217;s claim that most people would bow out before the charge of outlawry was laid, plenty of people would accept the claim in name of honor and fight all comers who came. Millar has given a lot of careful thought to why people in honor cultures do what they do. His legal analysis is a Schellingesque, but he takes emotions far more seriously than economist types would. He is Schelling meets Gavin de Becker meets a crusty Oxford professor of Old English.</p>
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		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2017/12/he-will-break-up-the-fight-before-they-kill-more-men-than-they-can-afford/comment-page-1/#comment-2598772</link>
		<dc:creator>Graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2017 17:40:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Well, every form of government spirals out of control sooner or later — whether it is then restored to something like its previous form or replaced by something else is the larger variable and the philosophical question for so-minded historians. Was the principate still the res publica?

The pre-existing form might affect the frequency and scale of the disruptions — a despotic monarchy might collapse under conditions a feudal or tribal or oligarchic one might survive, they all probably stall more frequently but less intensely than republics. Fewer players, more specific stakes, less challenge to the overall definition of the system.

Apart from that — thanks — I now have a Japanese slang term to call my very own and which describes my lifestyle. And here I thought only anime or flower enthusiasts could have those.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, every form of government spirals out of control sooner or later — whether it is then restored to something like its previous form or replaced by something else is the larger variable and the philosophical question for so-minded historians. Was the principate still the res publica?</p>
<p>The pre-existing form might affect the frequency and scale of the disruptions — a despotic monarchy might collapse under conditions a feudal or tribal or oligarchic one might survive, they all probably stall more frequently but less intensely than republics. Fewer players, more specific stakes, less challenge to the overall definition of the system.</p>
<p>Apart from that — thanks — I now have a Japanese slang term to call my very own and which describes my lifestyle. And here I thought only anime or flower enthusiasts could have those.</p>
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		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2017/12/he-will-break-up-the-fight-before-they-kill-more-men-than-they-can-afford/comment-page-1/#comment-2598741</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2017 16:16:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve been meaning to read the sagas &lt;em&gt;forever&lt;/em&gt;, and I have a copy of Byock’s &lt;a href=&quot;http://amzn.to/2AXWil1&quot;&gt;Viking Age Iceland&lt;/a&gt; I&#039;ve been meaning to get to, too, but the &lt;a href=&quot;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsundoku&quot;&gt;tsundoko&lt;/a&gt; is powerful. Now I have to add Miller? &quot;Almost as good as Shelling might have been and better than Friedman&quot; is pretty high praise!

As for science-fiction authors reading the sagas, I must highly recommend Poul Anderson&#039;s &quot;The Man Who Came Early,&quot; which is included in &lt;a href=&quot;http://amzn.to/2AYzOAu&quot;&gt;The Best Time Travel Stories of the 20th Century&lt;/a&gt;. (It came up earlier, when I was discussing &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.isegoria.net/2010/03/books-that-have-influenced-me/&quot;&gt;books that have influenced me&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.isegoria.net/2010/12/ideas-behind-their-time/&quot;&gt;ideas behind their time&lt;/a&gt;.) I also recommend his &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.isegoria.net/2012/08/uncleftish-beholding/&quot;&gt;Uncleftish Beholding&lt;/a&gt;, an explanation of atomic theory bereft of borrowed Latin words.

I agree that Friedman seems oddly upbeat about Icelandic anarchy, but it &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; saying something that it lasted hundreds of years before spiraling out of control &#8212; like democratic republics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been meaning to read the sagas <em>forever</em>, and I have a copy of Byock’s <a href="http://amzn.to/2AXWil1">Viking Age Iceland</a> I&#8217;ve been meaning to get to, too, but the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsundoku">tsundoko</a> is powerful. Now I have to add Miller? &#8220;Almost as good as Shelling might have been and better than Friedman&#8221; is pretty high praise!</p>
<p>As for science-fiction authors reading the sagas, I must highly recommend Poul Anderson&#8217;s &#8220;The Man Who Came Early,&#8221; which is included in <a href="http://amzn.to/2AYzOAu">The Best Time Travel Stories of the 20th Century</a>. (It came up earlier, when I was discussing <a href="http://www.isegoria.net/2010/03/books-that-have-influenced-me/">books that have influenced me</a> and <a href="http://www.isegoria.net/2010/12/ideas-behind-their-time/">ideas behind their time</a>.) I also recommend his <a href="http://www.isegoria.net/2012/08/uncleftish-beholding/">Uncleftish Beholding</a>, an explanation of atomic theory bereft of borrowed Latin words.</p>
<p>I agree that Friedman seems oddly upbeat about Icelandic anarchy, but it <em>is</em> saying something that it lasted hundreds of years before spiraling out of control &mdash; like democratic republics.</p>
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		<title>By: T. Greer</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2017/12/he-will-break-up-the-fight-before-they-kill-more-men-than-they-can-afford/comment-page-1/#comment-2598218</link>
		<dc:creator>T. Greer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Dec 2017 16:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Though perhaps the book Isegoria would like more is &lt;i&gt;Eye for an Eye&lt;/i&gt;. The same wergeld system in Anglo-Saxon England is analyzed with some depth, with fun interludes into questions like this: just how much more is your pinky worth than your ring finger?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Though perhaps the book Isegoria would like more is <i>Eye for an Eye</i>. The same wergeld system in Anglo-Saxon England is analyzed with some depth, with fun interludes into questions like this: just how much more is your pinky worth than your ring finger?</p>
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		<title>By: T. Greer</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2017/12/he-will-break-up-the-fight-before-they-kill-more-men-than-they-can-afford/comment-page-1/#comment-2598216</link>
		<dc:creator>T. Greer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Dec 2017 16:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=42726#comment-2598216</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This summer I read &lt;i&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://amzn.to/2kp5Rmc&quot;&gt;Njal&#039;s Saga&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/i&gt;, a few of the sagas included in the &lt;i&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://amzn.to/2nzE2sX&quot;&gt;Sagas of the Icelanders&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/i&gt; volume, Jesse Byock&#039;s &lt;i&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://amzn.to/2iVIjFy&quot;&gt;Viking Age Iceland&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/i&gt;, and William Ian Miller&#039;s &lt;i&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://amzn.to/2iWTjm0&quot;&gt;Eye for an Eye&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://amzn.to/2imWgbm&quot;&gt;Bloodtaking and Peacemaking: Feud, Law, and Society in Saga Iceland&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/i&gt;.

I did not get to Miller&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Why is my Ax Bloody?&lt;/i&gt; (or any of his other rather fascinating titles) but I would like to.

My thoughts from all this reading were numerous. But some highlights:

*It is a great shame that Thomas Schelling never read the Sagas. They are made for Schelling. 

*William Ian Miller is almost as good as Shelling might have been. (And better than Friedman, if Alexander&#039;s summaries are correct). This guy is something else. 

*Every libertarian needs to read at least &lt;i&gt;Njal&#039;s Saga&lt;/i&gt; and Miller&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Bloodtaking and Peacemaking.&lt;/i&gt; Maybe not all of the latter but parts. 

*Every science fiction author should read them too. The social and legal world of med iceland is way more out-of-this-world than most science fictionists can manage, but presented as engrossing literature, not some pseudo-scientific ethnographic report. 

*It is possible to have a system of laws that people &lt;i&gt;follow and obey&lt;/i&gt; without having any government at all. Law precedes government. 

*But those systems are also very &lt;i&gt;bloody.&lt;/i&gt; The Icelanders chose freedom, equality, and violence. 

*Isegoria would really like William Ian Miller. 

As a final note--not something from my reading, but a response to Friedman glossed by Alexander: it is very difficult to read the &lt;i&gt;Saga of Burnt Njal&lt;/i&gt; as a manifesto in favor of the system&#039;s stability. The titular character spends the entire book talking about how the law is king... and is burnt alive in house for his efforts. The feuding spirals out of control until almost every faction in the island is involved. You &lt;i&gt;might&lt;/i&gt; call that stable--but normally speaking, when the death of man blossoms into battles with tens of people on each side, and a killings and counter killings stretch on for two decades we would not call this situation &#039;stable.&#039;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This summer I read <i><a href="http://amzn.to/2kp5Rmc">Njal&#8217;s Saga</a></i>, a few of the sagas included in the <i><a href="http://amzn.to/2nzE2sX">Sagas of the Icelanders</a></i> volume, Jesse Byock&#8217;s <i><a href="http://amzn.to/2iVIjFy">Viking Age Iceland</a></i>, and William Ian Miller&#8217;s <i><a href="http://amzn.to/2iWTjm0">Eye for an Eye</a></i> and <i><a href="http://amzn.to/2imWgbm">Bloodtaking and Peacemaking: Feud, Law, and Society in Saga Iceland</a></i>.</p>
<p>I did not get to Miller&#8217;s <i>Why is my Ax Bloody?</i> (or any of his other rather fascinating titles) but I would like to.</p>
<p>My thoughts from all this reading were numerous. But some highlights:</p>
<p>*It is a great shame that Thomas Schelling never read the Sagas. They are made for Schelling. </p>
<p>*William Ian Miller is almost as good as Shelling might have been. (And better than Friedman, if Alexander&#8217;s summaries are correct). This guy is something else. </p>
<p>*Every libertarian needs to read at least <i>Njal&#8217;s Saga</i> and Miller&#8217;s <i>Bloodtaking and Peacemaking.</i> Maybe not all of the latter but parts. </p>
<p>*Every science fiction author should read them too. The social and legal world of med iceland is way more out-of-this-world than most science fictionists can manage, but presented as engrossing literature, not some pseudo-scientific ethnographic report. </p>
<p>*It is possible to have a system of laws that people <i>follow and obey</i> without having any government at all. Law precedes government. </p>
<p>*But those systems are also very <i>bloody.</i> The Icelanders chose freedom, equality, and violence. </p>
<p>*Isegoria would really like William Ian Miller. </p>
<p>As a final note&#8211;not something from my reading, but a response to Friedman glossed by Alexander: it is very difficult to read the <i>Saga of Burnt Njal</i> as a manifesto in favor of the system&#8217;s stability. The titular character spends the entire book talking about how the law is king&#8230; and is burnt alive in house for his efforts. The feuding spirals out of control until almost every faction in the island is involved. You <i>might</i> call that stable&#8211;but normally speaking, when the death of man blossoms into battles with tens of people on each side, and a killings and counter killings stretch on for two decades we would not call this situation &#8216;stable.&#8217;</p>
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