(1) “since he is explicitly citing things like reasoning and problem solving as possible without consciousness”
How about the example of a bower bird or peacock. Clearly both animals are not conscious in the way we think about it. Both are explicitly, bird brained. But, both a peahen and female bower bird make mating choices dependent on, as far as I can tell, some level of appreciation of beauty. The pea hen is easy, but the female bower bird is making a decision about the nest building ability of the male bower bird. We have examples of octopus cities, and of fishes making little nest things. And as far as we can tell, this is instinct, and not consciousness.

(2) “entire human race going through significant brain altering evolution”
Would it have too? If we say that innovation in cultural practises (memes evolving) are what was the trigger, would this necessarily need an corresponding biological evolution event? Sure this is a leap, but we do not completely understand epigenetic triggers, maybe certain kinds of meme evolution can trigger this? A simple (and inaccurate) example could be, we live in a multi cultural world, so mixed race relationships are more common. I can see children born of mixed race couples having epigenetic triggers tripped, leading to some effect. This could have a in-aggregate appearance of super-quick biological evolution, but could have epigenetic roots as opposed to normal genetic roots right.

P.S. I have not read the source material, so please politely ignore if i’ve missed the point.

Thanks for this. I have heard/read a few things over the years along those lines as regards contemporary experience with brain injury or schizophrenia, or perhaps comparable conditions. I don’t aim to make any particular points on the nature of consciousness, the existence of consciousness, or the experience of split identity or of hearing seemingly disparate ones.

Only two things continue to strike me with regard to the larger thesis Jaynes has offered. One is again that many of the things he suggests humans have done without consciousness suggest to me that my definition of consciousness is too broad, since he is explicitly citing things like reasoning and problem solving as possible without consciousness. I have to consider that with care exactly because to me it sounds like taking in oxygen and expelling carbon dioxide using lungs without “respiration”.

The other point is only that his thesis would seem to require the entire human race going through significant brain altering evolution, in what amounts to a very short historical time or almost all at once.

It’s that second issue that always most struck me. Not that I have the slightest problem with ongoing human evolution in historical time, but that’s huge, fast, and comprehensive. Or so it seems to me.

Jill Bolte Taylor recounts her experience of having a stroke and what she learned about consciousness from it in her TED Talk. It fits very nicely with Jaynes’ thesis.

That said, brains may have great plasticity and capacity to adapt than Jaynes imagined, but I found his thoughts and ideas among the most interesting things I have ever read.

Apart from that, I’m struck in this passage by how much stuff I always thought of as part of consciousness that he removes in order to redefine and consequently downgrade it.