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	<title>Comments on: Mêlée</title>
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	<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2014/05/melee/</link>
	<description>From the ancient Greek for equality in freedom of speech; an eclectic mix of thoughts, large and small</description>
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		<title>By: Grasspunk</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2014/05/melee/comment-page-1/#comment-1411788</link>
		<dc:creator>Grasspunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2014 20:20:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=34781#comment-1411788</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While browsing some site I&#039;d never been to before (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.radixjournal.com/&quot;&gt;radixjournal.com&lt;/a&gt;) I found this example of a &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWV5X6cNWb4&quot;&gt;Knight Fight Club&lt;/a&gt;. I kept wanting the teams to stick together and not get flanked. Several of the knockdowns were from people getting caught unawares from the side. It seemed relevant to this discussion. And Scipio, I just saw your link.  Thanks for the recommendation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While browsing some site I&#8217;d never been to before (<a href="http://www.radixjournal.com/">radixjournal.com</a>) I found this example of a <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWV5X6cNWb4">Knight Fight Club</a>. I kept wanting the teams to stick together and not get flanked. Several of the knockdowns were from people getting caught unawares from the side. It seemed relevant to this discussion. And Scipio, I just saw your link.  Thanks for the recommendation.</p>
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		<title>By: Scipio Americanus</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2014/05/melee/comment-page-1/#comment-1274483</link>
		<dc:creator>Scipio Americanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jun 2014 02:32:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=34781#comment-1274483</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Grasspunk, see the primer I listed above for my synthesis of the current best understanding. It&#039;s phrased as suggestions for the makers of a video game but it ended up being sufficiently comprehensive to turn into a post.

There aren&#039;t any books I can suggest that are entirely about the topic, but bits and pieces show up in memoirs as well as more general works. There are some research papers as well, from a wide variety of disciplines.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grasspunk, see the primer I listed above for my synthesis of the current best understanding. It&#8217;s phrased as suggestions for the makers of a video game but it ended up being sufficiently comprehensive to turn into a post.</p>
<p>There aren&#8217;t any books I can suggest that are entirely about the topic, but bits and pieces show up in memoirs as well as more general works. There are some research papers as well, from a wide variety of disciplines.</p>
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		<title>By: Grasspunk</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2014/05/melee/comment-page-1/#comment-1273677</link>
		<dc:creator>Grasspunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Jun 2014 11:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=34781#comment-1273677</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Scipio, thanks for the rec. The battle shots were impressive. Just when I thought there was a painted backdrop they made a rider gallop across it to prove it was real. 

Still, I am curious what a better representation of hand-to-hand combat would be. It always seemed that people would be more careful to protect themselves by clustering in groups than was shown in the hockey line-brawl style movie fighting.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scipio, thanks for the rec. The battle shots were impressive. Just when I thought there was a painted backdrop they made a rider gallop across it to prove it was real. </p>
<p>Still, I am curious what a better representation of hand-to-hand combat would be. It always seemed that people would be more careful to protect themselves by clustering in groups than was shown in the hockey line-brawl style movie fighting.</p>
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		<title>By: Scipio Americanus</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2014/05/melee/comment-page-1/#comment-1251089</link>
		<dc:creator>Scipio Americanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2014 01:09:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=34781#comment-1251089</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wonder why. It&#039;s not like our current culture is more focused on either combat or history than that of the past. I was pretty shocked when I realized how recent most of the scholarship that informed my old &lt;a href=&quot;http://scipioamericanus.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/rome-ii-total-war-and-a-classical-warfare-primer/&quot;&gt;classical warfare primer&lt;/a&gt; was.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder why. It&#8217;s not like our current culture is more focused on either combat or history than that of the past. I was pretty shocked when I realized how recent most of the scholarship that informed my old <a href="http://scipioamericanus.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/rome-ii-total-war-and-a-classical-warfare-primer/">classical warfare primer</a> was.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Johnson</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2014/05/melee/comment-page-1/#comment-1251020</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 May 2014 00:04:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=34781#comment-1251020</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In addition to mass hand-to-hand combat, I think our understanding of individual hand-to-hand combat has gone from almost nothing to basically complete understanding in the last 25 years. 

25 years ago if you wanted to most effectively train unarmed individual combat you had no real idea where to start. Today you have a specific plan &#8212; either learn how to defend against being taken to the ground, learn how to strike and escape if you do get taken down, learn how to take someone to the ground and how to dominate on the ground, or learn enough of each of the three main skills to keep the fight where you have an edge on your opponent. That is a huge increase in knowledge.

Compare to UFC 1&#8211;5, when people would come in knowing striking but no take down defense (very poor idea) or take down defense and striking with no ground skills (more successful).

It really is astounding how much the understanding of individual fighting has advanced in a short period of time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to mass hand-to-hand combat, I think our understanding of individual hand-to-hand combat has gone from almost nothing to basically complete understanding in the last 25 years. </p>
<p>25 years ago if you wanted to most effectively train unarmed individual combat you had no real idea where to start. Today you have a specific plan &mdash; either learn how to defend against being taken to the ground, learn how to strike and escape if you do get taken down, learn how to take someone to the ground and how to dominate on the ground, or learn enough of each of the three main skills to keep the fight where you have an edge on your opponent. That is a huge increase in knowledge.</p>
<p>Compare to UFC 1&ndash;5, when people would come in knowing striking but no take down defense (very poor idea) or take down defense and striking with no ground skills (more successful).</p>
<p>It really is astounding how much the understanding of individual fighting has advanced in a short period of time.</p>
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		<title>By: Scipio Americanus</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2014/05/melee/comment-page-1/#comment-1250591</link>
		<dc:creator>Scipio Americanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2014 16:44:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=34781#comment-1250591</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For hand-to-hand mass combat (a phenomenon almost totally different from individual combat)... honestly I don&#039;t know if I&#039;ve ever seen such in a movie. Partly this is because, odd as it may seem, our understanding of the subject has improved greatly in the last 25 years. If anyone has any suggestions I&#039;d be very interested.

For Napoleonic combat, I can&#039;t help but suggest the incredibly epic &quot;Waterloo&quot; by Sergei Bondarchuk (produced by the De Laurentis company). IIRC, the Soviet government lent them a motor rifle division to equip and train as Napoleonic troops and had the Red Army&#039;s engineering troops recreate the Waterloo battlefield in Ukraine, including moving hills and ridges around, building roads and villages, and planting crops before production so that they&#039;d show the right stage of growth during filming. They even laid irrigation piping to make the right spots muddy.

Then they marched full-sized units around on it, including cavalry. Here&#039;s a &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oLflPilcMc&quot;&gt;taste&lt;/a&gt;.

Sadly the artillery&#039;s realism was limited by the special effects technology of the day.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For hand-to-hand mass combat (a phenomenon almost totally different from individual combat)&#8230; honestly I don&#8217;t know if I&#8217;ve ever seen such in a movie. Partly this is because, odd as it may seem, our understanding of the subject has improved greatly in the last 25 years. If anyone has any suggestions I&#8217;d be very interested.</p>
<p>For Napoleonic combat, I can&#8217;t help but suggest the incredibly epic &#8220;Waterloo&#8221; by Sergei Bondarchuk (produced by the De Laurentis company). IIRC, the Soviet government lent them a motor rifle division to equip and train as Napoleonic troops and had the Red Army&#8217;s engineering troops recreate the Waterloo battlefield in Ukraine, including moving hills and ridges around, building roads and villages, and planting crops before production so that they&#8217;d show the right stage of growth during filming. They even laid irrigation piping to make the right spots muddy.</p>
<p>Then they marched full-sized units around on it, including cavalry. Here&#8217;s a <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oLflPilcMc">taste</a>.</p>
<p>Sadly the artillery&#8217;s realism was limited by the special effects technology of the day.</p>
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		<title>By: Grasspunk</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2014/05/melee/comment-page-1/#comment-1250039</link>
		<dc:creator>Grasspunk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2014 07:45:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=34781#comment-1250039</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Which movie depictions of hand-to-hand combat &lt;em&gt;are&lt;/em&gt; realistic?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which movie depictions of hand-to-hand combat <em>are</em> realistic?</p>
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		<title>By: Scipio Americanus</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2014/05/melee/comment-page-1/#comment-1249152</link>
		<dc:creator>Scipio Americanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2014 15:40:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=34781#comment-1249152</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What a concise description. The &quot;Hollywood mashup&quot; model of pre-modern hand-to-hand combat is annoying in its current ubiquity.

Bruce, there have been plenty of mass bayonet charges in history. It&#039;s just that they&#039;re usually conducted at the quick-march rather than as a pell-mell rush, and they very rarely actually reach the enemy line. If they&#039;re successful the enemy runs away; if they&#039;re unsuccessful the charging unit withers under fire and falls back. There have been only a very few occasions where actual fighting with the bayonet occurred between the charging and defending units.

&quot;Running shot being a fast half-charge reload with a musket while scooting from one piece of cover to another.&quot;

These are skirmishing tactics, which everyone used very heavily during the Napoleonic period and thereafter. Skirmishers fix the enemy, disrupt his movements, and reduce his morale. While they occasionally won battles on their own, it was more common that, due to the communications difficulties in commanding men who are spread out, the battle was decided by larger forces in close order.

Of course there were always schools of thought that argued the entire army should be deployed as skirmishers, especially among the French, the acknowledged masters of skirmishing tactics. They never really came up with a solution for imposing any kind of coherent direction on those dispersed swarms, though. That had to wait for the radio.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a concise description. The &#8220;Hollywood mashup&#8221; model of pre-modern hand-to-hand combat is annoying in its current ubiquity.</p>
<p>Bruce, there have been plenty of mass bayonet charges in history. It&#8217;s just that they&#8217;re usually conducted at the quick-march rather than as a pell-mell rush, and they very rarely actually reach the enemy line. If they&#8217;re successful the enemy runs away; if they&#8217;re unsuccessful the charging unit withers under fire and falls back. There have been only a very few occasions where actual fighting with the bayonet occurred between the charging and defending units.</p>
<p>&#8220;Running shot being a fast half-charge reload with a musket while scooting from one piece of cover to another.&#8221;</p>
<p>These are skirmishing tactics, which everyone used very heavily during the Napoleonic period and thereafter. Skirmishers fix the enemy, disrupt his movements, and reduce his morale. While they occasionally won battles on their own, it was more common that, due to the communications difficulties in commanding men who are spread out, the battle was decided by larger forces in close order.</p>
<p>Of course there were always schools of thought that argued the entire army should be deployed as skirmishers, especially among the French, the acknowledged masters of skirmishing tactics. They never really came up with a solution for imposing any kind of coherent direction on those dispersed swarms, though. That had to wait for the radio.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2014/05/melee/comment-page-1/#comment-1249115</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 May 2014 14:57:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=34781#comment-1249115</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d always heard du Picq was the source of the French &lt;em&gt;château&lt;/em&gt; generals ordering their troops to make suicidal cold steel &lt;em&gt;arme blanche&lt;/em&gt; bayonet charges against machine guns. So when I read du Picq, I was surprised to read there never was a cold steel bayonet charge ever in military history; Charles XII ordered one once, but even his berserks went with running shot &#8212; running shot being a fast half-charge reload with a musket while scooting from one piece of cover to another. The British official histories said it was a bad idea and No True Redcoat would ever. French Napoleonic veterans told du Picq it was a great idea. Like double-taping magazines &#8212; everyone in ordnance hates it, and they have good reason, but a lot of Viet vets swore by it. Beer and vino and bulshuckology, or something everyone in the field did, and everyone in ordnance hated?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d always heard du Picq was the source of the French <em>château</em> generals ordering their troops to make suicidal cold steel <em>arme blanche</em> bayonet charges against machine guns. So when I read du Picq, I was surprised to read there never was a cold steel bayonet charge ever in military history; Charles XII ordered one once, but even his berserks went with running shot &mdash; running shot being a fast half-charge reload with a musket while scooting from one piece of cover to another. The British official histories said it was a bad idea and No True Redcoat would ever. French Napoleonic veterans told du Picq it was a great idea. Like double-taping magazines &mdash; everyone in ordnance hates it, and they have good reason, but a lot of Viet vets swore by it. Beer and vino and bulshuckology, or something everyone in the field did, and everyone in ordnance hated?</p>
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