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	<title>Comments on: Jack Vance</title>
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	<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2013/05/jack-vance/</link>
	<description>From the ancient Greek for equality in freedom of speech; an eclectic mix of thoughts, large and small</description>
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		<title>By: Scipio Americanus</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2013/05/jack-vance/comment-page-1/#comment-871095</link>
		<dc:creator>Scipio Americanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 May 2013 19:15:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=31819#comment-871095</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Several months ago I went through a bout of illness that had me more or less confined to bed for a week, and I chose to spend it reading fiction. For anyone with an I-Device, I strongly suggest Apple&#039;s free &quot;classics&quot; library, as it has a lot more than just what most people consider the classics. They have tons of old scifi and fantasy, including some very obscure works. It&#039;s all available elsewhere for free but its nice to have it collected together and formatted decently, and you can find things by browsing that you&#039;d never think to go looking for.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Several months ago I went through a bout of illness that had me more or less confined to bed for a week, and I chose to spend it reading fiction. For anyone with an I-Device, I strongly suggest Apple&#8217;s free &#8220;classics&#8221; library, as it has a lot more than just what most people consider the classics. They have tons of old scifi and fantasy, including some very obscure works. It&#8217;s all available elsewhere for free but its nice to have it collected together and formatted decently, and you can find things by browsing that you&#8217;d never think to go looking for.</p>
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		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2013/05/jack-vance/comment-page-1/#comment-871053</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 May 2013 18:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=31819#comment-871053</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve been meaning to read both &lt;cite&gt;Uller Uprising&lt;/cite&gt; and &lt;cite&gt;Little Fuzzy&lt;/cite&gt;.  (They&#039;re available for free, in electronic format, by the way.)

Lovecraft&#039;s modern post-Christian nihilism really stands out to me after spending some time in the neo-reacto-sphere.  He&#039;s clearly doing &lt;em&gt;something&lt;/em&gt; interesting, even if it&#039;s flawed.

And I wouldn&#039;t consider it &quot;prole&quot; so much as &quot;geeky&quot; to seek out &quot;playgrounds of the mind&quot; &#8212; and no one around here is going to cast the first stone on that point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been meaning to read both <cite>Uller Uprising</cite> and <cite>Little Fuzzy</cite>.  (They&#8217;re available for free, in electronic format, by the way.)</p>
<p>Lovecraft&#8217;s modern post-Christian nihilism really stands out to me after spending some time in the neo-reacto-sphere.  He&#8217;s clearly doing <em>something</em> interesting, even if it&#8217;s flawed.</p>
<p>And I wouldn&#8217;t consider it &#8220;prole&#8221; so much as &#8220;geeky&#8221; to seek out &#8220;playgrounds of the mind&#8221; &mdash; and no one around here is going to cast the first stone on that point.</p>
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		<title>By: Scipio Americanus</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2013/05/jack-vance/comment-page-1/#comment-870384</link>
		<dc:creator>Scipio Americanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 May 2013 00:25:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=31819#comment-870384</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I admit that growing up fairly prole has resulted in a higher-than-average tolerance for crappy writing/filmmaking, as long as I can connect with an interesting &lt;i&gt;idea&lt;/i&gt; at the heart of the story/setting. To steal a term of Larry Niven&#039;s, my tendency is to go hunting for &quot;playgrounds of the mind&quot; and ignore the dross attached to them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I admit that growing up fairly prole has resulted in a higher-than-average tolerance for crappy writing/filmmaking, as long as I can connect with an interesting <i>idea</i> at the heart of the story/setting. To steal a term of Larry Niven&#8217;s, my tendency is to go hunting for &#8220;playgrounds of the mind&#8221; and ignore the dross attached to them.</p>
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		<title>By: Scipio Americanus</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2013/05/jack-vance/comment-page-1/#comment-870380</link>
		<dc:creator>Scipio Americanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 May 2013 00:09:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=31819#comment-870380</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You know, now that you mention it a lot of Heinlein&#039;s widely talked about stuff like &lt;i&gt;The Moon is a Harsh Mistress&lt;/i&gt;, &lt;i&gt;Stranger in a Strange Land&lt;/i&gt;, &lt;i&gt;The Cat Who Walks Through Walls&lt;/i&gt;, and &lt;i&gt;Farnham&#039;s Freehold&lt;/i&gt; didn&#039;t really do anything for me either. When I think of Heinlein, though, what I generally have in mind are his early novels and short stories about the exploration and settling of the solar system; the works he wrote before he became &quot;The Dean of Science Fiction.&quot; 

I agree with regards to &lt;i&gt;Space Viking&lt;/i&gt;. It seems like Piper had two modes, one where his characters suffered but the political/historical aspect was very well developed and another in which his characters were well developed and the political/historical context is less filled in. For a good example of the former (and the acme of reactionary scifi, in my opinion) try &lt;i&gt;Uller Uprising&lt;/i&gt;. &lt;i&gt;Little Fuzzy&lt;/i&gt; on the other hand is representative of the second mode. If Piper had a major weakness, it was titles.

The &lt;i&gt;New Sun&lt;/i&gt; novels are a real slog, but in the same way Dostoevsky can be. It&#039;s... intellectually nourishing I suppose is the closest I can come to a meaningful description. And a masterwork of prose; I once read the same chapter in &lt;i&gt;Book of the New Sun&lt;/i&gt; four times in a row and got four completely unique narratives that were each equally but independently illuminative of the main plot.

I think what separates people who love Lovecraft from people who can&#039;t stand him (I&#039;ve rarely found another category) is how impacted they are by that &quot;unspeakable &lt;i&gt;something&lt;/i&gt;.&quot; In my case I discovered his writings at the same time I was seriously academically studying metaphysics, quantum mechanics, and the limitations of general relativity. Some of the things he was getting at seemed and still seem very important to me, though I honestly struggle to get it into words.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, now that you mention it a lot of Heinlein&#8217;s widely talked about stuff like <i>The Moon is a Harsh Mistress</i>, <i>Stranger in a Strange Land</i>, <i>The Cat Who Walks Through Walls</i>, and <i>Farnham&#8217;s Freehold</i> didn&#8217;t really do anything for me either. When I think of Heinlein, though, what I generally have in mind are his early novels and short stories about the exploration and settling of the solar system; the works he wrote before he became &#8220;The Dean of Science Fiction.&#8221; </p>
<p>I agree with regards to <i>Space Viking</i>. It seems like Piper had two modes, one where his characters suffered but the political/historical aspect was very well developed and another in which his characters were well developed and the political/historical context is less filled in. For a good example of the former (and the acme of reactionary scifi, in my opinion) try <i>Uller Uprising</i>. <i>Little Fuzzy</i> on the other hand is representative of the second mode. If Piper had a major weakness, it was titles.</p>
<p>The <i>New Sun</i> novels are a real slog, but in the same way Dostoevsky can be. It&#8217;s&#8230; intellectually nourishing I suppose is the closest I can come to a meaningful description. And a masterwork of prose; I once read the same chapter in <i>Book of the New Sun</i> four times in a row and got four completely unique narratives that were each equally but independently illuminative of the main plot.</p>
<p>I think what separates people who love Lovecraft from people who can&#8217;t stand him (I&#8217;ve rarely found another category) is how impacted they are by that &#8220;unspeakable <i>something</i>.&#8221; In my case I discovered his writings at the same time I was seriously academically studying metaphysics, quantum mechanics, and the limitations of general relativity. Some of the things he was getting at seemed and still seem very important to me, though I honestly struggle to get it into words.</p>
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		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2013/05/jack-vance/comment-page-1/#comment-870375</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 May 2013 23:51:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=31819#comment-870375</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you want readable science fiction from the Golden Age, pick up &lt;cite&gt;The Science Fiction Hall of Fame&lt;/cite&gt; &#8212; every volume.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want readable science fiction from the Golden Age, pick up <cite>The Science Fiction Hall of Fame</cite> &mdash; every volume.</p>
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		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2013/05/jack-vance/comment-page-1/#comment-870372</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 May 2013 23:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=31819#comment-870372</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[H. Beam Piper&#039;s &lt;cite&gt;Space Viking&lt;/cite&gt; is cursed with a terrible title &#8212; and rather wooden characters &#8212; but it struck me as very Moldbuggian and neo-reactionary.  I suppose the historical parallels may be a bit too on the nose, as well &#8212; but I found it curiously compelling nonetheless.

I haven&#039;t read &lt;cite&gt;Skylark&lt;/cite&gt;, but I have read (most of) E.E. &quot;Doc&quot; Smith&#039;s &lt;cite&gt;Lensmen&lt;/cite&gt; novels, which aren&#039;t so much &lt;em&gt;good&lt;/em&gt; as &lt;em&gt;influential&lt;/em&gt;.  Really, just about &lt;em&gt;everything&lt;/em&gt; in sci-fi comes from Smith&#039;s space operas.

It&#039;s fitting that you&#039;d mention Gene Wolfe in a tribute to Jack Vance &#8212; but I never much enjoyed his &lt;cite&gt;New Sun&lt;/cite&gt; novels.  I guess Vance&#039;s dark humor makes such dark post-apocalyptic futures palatable.

Lastly, Lovecraft&#039;s writing has a certain unspeakable &lt;em&gt;something&lt;/em&gt;, but I wouldn&#039;t call it &lt;em&gt;good&lt;/em&gt;.  And kudos for using &lt;em&gt;rugose&lt;/em&gt; as your example.  I&#039;m so used to &lt;em&gt;eldritch&lt;/em&gt;, &lt;em&gt; cyclopean &lt;/em&gt;, &lt;em&gt;non-Euclidian&lt;/em&gt;, etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>H. Beam Piper&#8217;s <cite>Space Viking</cite> is cursed with a terrible title &mdash; and rather wooden characters &mdash; but it struck me as very Moldbuggian and neo-reactionary.  I suppose the historical parallels may be a bit too on the nose, as well &mdash; but I found it curiously compelling nonetheless.</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t read <cite>Skylark</cite>, but I have read (most of) E.E. &#8220;Doc&#8221; Smith&#8217;s <cite>Lensmen</cite> novels, which aren&#8217;t so much <em>good</em> as <em>influential</em>.  Really, just about <em>everything</em> in sci-fi comes from Smith&#8217;s space operas.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s fitting that you&#8217;d mention Gene Wolfe in a tribute to Jack Vance &mdash; but I never much enjoyed his <cite>New Sun</cite> novels.  I guess Vance&#8217;s dark humor makes such dark post-apocalyptic futures palatable.</p>
<p>Lastly, Lovecraft&#8217;s writing has a certain unspeakable <em>something</em>, but I wouldn&#8217;t call it <em>good</em>.  And kudos for using <em>rugose</em> as your example.  I&#8217;m so used to <em>eldritch</em>, <em> cyclopean </em>, <em>non-Euclidian</em>, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2013/05/jack-vance/comment-page-1/#comment-870369</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 May 2013 23:38:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=31819#comment-870369</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I read &lt;cite&gt;Starship Troopers&lt;/cite&gt; during my own Golden Age of Science Fiction, and I felt it held up when i re-read recently.  (Don&#039;t get me started on the movie.)  So I have a soft spot for Heinlein.  That said, I haven&#039;t really enjoyed much else of his, now that I think about it.

&lt;cite&gt;Stranger in a Strange Land&lt;/cite&gt; made little sense to me a year or two after I first read &lt;cite&gt;Starship Troopers&lt;/cite&gt;, and I reconfirmed that I still don&#039;t &lt;em&gt;grok&lt;/em&gt; it.

&lt;cite&gt;The Cat Who Walks Through Walls&lt;/cite&gt; never worked for me.

&lt;cite&gt;Glory Road&lt;/cite&gt; was... fine.

&lt;cite&gt;The Moon is a Harsh Mistress&lt;/cite&gt; seemed like it should be right up my alley, but it was... jusk OK.

&lt;cite&gt;Farnham&#039;s Freehold&lt;/cite&gt; was... OK.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read <cite>Starship Troopers</cite> during my own Golden Age of Science Fiction, and I felt it held up when i re-read recently.  (Don&#8217;t get me started on the movie.)  So I have a soft spot for Heinlein.  That said, I haven&#8217;t really enjoyed much else of his, now that I think about it.</p>
<p><cite>Stranger in a Strange Land</cite> made little sense to me a year or two after I first read <cite>Starship Troopers</cite>, and I reconfirmed that I still don&#8217;t <em>grok</em> it.</p>
<p><cite>The Cat Who Walks Through Walls</cite> never worked for me.</p>
<p><cite>Glory Road</cite> was&#8230; fine.</p>
<p><cite>The Moon is a Harsh Mistress</cite> seemed like it should be right up my alley, but it was&#8230; jusk OK.</p>
<p><cite>Farnham&#8217;s Freehold</cite> was&#8230; OK.</p>
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		<title>By: Scipio Americanus</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2013/05/jack-vance/comment-page-1/#comment-870357</link>
		<dc:creator>Scipio Americanus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 May 2013 22:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=31819#comment-870357</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I haven&#039;t reread any Heinlein other than &lt;cite&gt;Starship Troopers&lt;/cite&gt; since I was in high school (2006), but I found his prose unproblematic. Since then I&#039;ve read most of H. Beam Piper as well as E.E. Smith&#039;s &lt;cite&gt;Skylark&lt;/cite&gt; series and noticed no oddities other than some linguistic archaisms in the latter; reasonable as it was written over 70 years ago. 

Prior to that I read pretty much every sci-fi story I could get my hands on, quite a lot of it from the Golden Age. Not much of it was up to Gene Wolfe&#039;s writing standards, but I remember only rarely putting things down because of that kind of unreadability.

Then again I might just be weird. I like Lovecraft&#039;s prose, for instance. Could never understand all the criticism over things like using &quot;rugose&quot; to describe something that was... well, rugose.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t reread any Heinlein other than <cite>Starship Troopers</cite> since I was in high school (2006), but I found his prose unproblematic. Since then I&#8217;ve read most of H. Beam Piper as well as E.E. Smith&#8217;s <cite>Skylark</cite> series and noticed no oddities other than some linguistic archaisms in the latter; reasonable as it was written over 70 years ago. </p>
<p>Prior to that I read pretty much every sci-fi story I could get my hands on, quite a lot of it from the Golden Age. Not much of it was up to Gene Wolfe&#8217;s writing standards, but I remember only rarely putting things down because of that kind of unreadability.</p>
<p>Then again I might just be weird. I like Lovecraft&#8217;s prose, for instance. Could never understand all the criticism over things like using &#8220;rugose&#8221; to describe something that was&#8230; well, rugose.</p>
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		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2013/05/jack-vance/comment-page-1/#comment-870340</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 May 2013 22:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=31819#comment-870340</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know if &lt;em&gt;most&lt;/em&gt; Golden Age science fiction is unreadable today, but I did recently reconfirm that I do not &lt;em&gt;grok&lt;/em&gt; Heinlein&#039;s &lt;cite&gt;Stranger in a Strange Land&lt;/cite&gt;.

(When exactly is the Golden Age of science fiction?  The joke is that it&#039;s &lt;em&gt;13 years old&lt;/em&gt;.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know if <em>most</em> Golden Age science fiction is unreadable today, but I did recently reconfirm that I do not <em>grok</em> Heinlein&#8217;s <cite>Stranger in a Strange Land</cite>.</p>
<p>(When exactly is the Golden Age of science fiction?  The joke is that it&#8217;s <em>13 years old</em>.)</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Sykes</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2013/05/jack-vance/comment-page-1/#comment-870332</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Sykes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 May 2013 21:52:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=31819#comment-870332</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I read a lot of his stuff in the 60s and 70s. &lt;cite&gt;The Dying Earth&lt;/cite&gt; is still on my bookshelf.

What a great life. Thank you for telling me the back story.

So much of classical SF is unreadable today. One thinks especially of Heinlein, which I read entire. But Vance is still readable.  What happened? Is it us?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read a lot of his stuff in the 60s and 70s. <cite>The Dying Earth</cite> is still on my bookshelf.</p>
<p>What a great life. Thank you for telling me the back story.</p>
<p>So much of classical SF is unreadable today. One thinks especially of Heinlein, which I read entire. But Vance is still readable.  What happened? Is it us?</p>
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