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	<title>Comments on: Why Science and Engineering Majors Change Their Minds</title>
	<atom:link href="https://www.isegoria.net/2011/11/why-science-and-engineering-majors-change-their-minds/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/11/why-science-and-engineering-majors-change-their-minds/</link>
	<description>From the ancient Greek for equality in freedom of speech; an eclectic mix of thoughts, large and small</description>
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		<title>By: George DeMarse</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/11/why-science-and-engineering-majors-change-their-minds/comment-page-1/#comment-833713</link>
		<dc:creator>George DeMarse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Apr 2013 22:02:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=27168#comment-833713</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We sure have gone a long way in this blog from how hard the engineering curriculum is to GE wanting to rid itself of management and calling this &quot;headslappingly obvious.&quot;

Don&#039;t be silly. GE, along with every other corporation, loves managers. They can justify higher salaries for managers and &quot;blame&quot; them for delivering bad news to the workforce--like downsizing and offshoring.

The uses for managers by corporations are many and they are gold.

George DeMarse
The Sage of Wake Forest]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We sure have gone a long way in this blog from how hard the engineering curriculum is to GE wanting to rid itself of management and calling this &#8220;headslappingly obvious.&#8221;</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t be silly. GE, along with every other corporation, loves managers. They can justify higher salaries for managers and &#8220;blame&#8221; them for delivering bad news to the workforce&#8211;like downsizing and offshoring.</p>
<p>The uses for managers by corporations are many and they are gold.</p>
<p>George DeMarse<br />
The Sage of Wake Forest</p>
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		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/11/why-science-and-engineering-majors-change-their-minds/comment-page-1/#comment-376807</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:48:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=27168#comment-376807</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wouldn&#039;t call &lt;em&gt;eliminating all management&lt;/em&gt; a &quot;head-slappingly obvious management improvement&quot; &#8212; even if it&#039;s the kind of thing every low-level employee dreams of.  I&#039;ve mentioned that &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.isegoria.net/2006/01/engines-of-democracy/&quot;&gt;Engines of Democracy&lt;/a&gt; piece before, by the way, as well as Joel Spolsky&#039;s piece, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.isegoria.net/2008/08/how-i-learned-to-love-middle-managers/&quot;&gt;How I Learned to Love Middle Managers&lt;/a&gt;.

There seems to be a natural tension between top-down, centralized decision-making and bottom-up, decentralized decision-making, and middle-managers are, of course, caught in the middle.  Napoleon made sure to have a group of trusted aides he could use as his &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/resources/csi/griffin/griffin.asp&quot;&gt;directed telescope&lt;/a&gt;, to zoom in on important details by bypassing the staff hierarchy:
&lt;blockquote&gt;As with every commander, Napoleon relied heavily on the routine reports of his commanders and staff. Nevertheless, he often found them lacking in detail, thus not fully useful. Also, unit reports frequently neglected to express the more intangible aspects of a unit&#039;s status &#8212; like leadership, morale, and esprit. If subordinate commands did address these vital areas in reports, they were often less than objective and sometimes totally biased. To keep him informed on the significant conditions within his various commands and to verify his subordinates&#039; reports, Napoleon used his aides as a directed telescope to augment the regular reporting system. Napoleon viewed the formal staff system as totally inadequate when reporting what Van Creveld refers to as &quot;less structured information.&quot; The emperor-general also turned his telescope toward the enemy on occasion and on the terrain where campaigns were to be fought. It was Napoleon&#039;s use of aides and his system of formal reporting procedures that contributed to his leadership techniques becoming a wholesale revolution in military command.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t call <em>eliminating all management</em> a &#8220;head-slappingly obvious management improvement&#8221; &mdash; even if it&#8217;s the kind of thing every low-level employee dreams of.  I&#8217;ve mentioned that <a href="http://www.isegoria.net/2006/01/engines-of-democracy/">Engines of Democracy</a> piece before, by the way, as well as Joel Spolsky&#8217;s piece, <a href="http://www.isegoria.net/2008/08/how-i-learned-to-love-middle-managers/">How I Learned to Love Middle Managers</a>.</p>
<p>There seems to be a natural tension between top-down, centralized decision-making and bottom-up, decentralized decision-making, and middle-managers are, of course, caught in the middle.  Napoleon made sure to have a group of trusted aides he could use as his <a href="http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/resources/csi/griffin/griffin.asp">directed telescope</a>, to zoom in on important details by bypassing the staff hierarchy:</p>
<blockquote><p>As with every commander, Napoleon relied heavily on the routine reports of his commanders and staff. Nevertheless, he often found them lacking in detail, thus not fully useful. Also, unit reports frequently neglected to express the more intangible aspects of a unit&#8217;s status &mdash; like leadership, morale, and esprit. If subordinate commands did address these vital areas in reports, they were often less than objective and sometimes totally biased. To keep him informed on the significant conditions within his various commands and to verify his subordinates&#8217; reports, Napoleon used his aides as a directed telescope to augment the regular reporting system. Napoleon viewed the formal staff system as totally inadequate when reporting what Van Creveld refers to as &#8220;less structured information.&#8221; The emperor-general also turned his telescope toward the enemy on occasion and on the terrain where campaigns were to be fought. It was Napoleon&#8217;s use of aides and his system of formal reporting procedures that contributed to his leadership techniques becoming a wholesale revolution in military command.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Alrenous</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/11/why-science-and-engineering-majors-change-their-minds/comment-page-1/#comment-376519</link>
		<dc:creator>Alrenous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Nov 2011 03:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=27168#comment-376519</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not the first time GE has figured out the head-slappingly obvious &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/28/ge.html&quot;&gt;management improvements&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not the first time GE has figured out the head-slappingly obvious <a href="http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/28/ge.html">management improvements</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: David Foster</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/11/why-science-and-engineering-majors-change-their-minds/comment-page-1/#comment-376291</link>
		<dc:creator>David Foster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=27168#comment-376291</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[By the way, GE is trying out a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gereports.com/manufacturing-apprentice-program-excels-in-ma/&quot;&gt;manufacturing apprentice program&lt;/a&gt; in the jet engine biz.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, GE is trying out a <a href="http://www.gereports.com/manufacturing-apprentice-program-excels-in-ma/">manufacturing apprentice program</a> in the jet engine biz.</p>
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		<title>By: David Foster</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/11/why-science-and-engineering-majors-change-their-minds/comment-page-1/#comment-376288</link>
		<dc:creator>David Foster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:13:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=27168#comment-376288</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Perhaps it&#039;s reasonable for an employer to have to train someone how to use a micrometer; it&#039;s not reasonable for the employer to have to train him how to add &amp; subtract decimals and fractions so that he can actually measure something with it. It&#039;s reasonable for an employer to train someone in the latest version of a programming language; it&#039;s not reasonable for the employer to have to train him in the conceptual basics of programming.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps it&#8217;s reasonable for an employer to have to train someone how to use a micrometer; it&#8217;s not reasonable for the employer to have to train him how to add &amp; subtract decimals and fractions so that he can actually measure something with it. It&#8217;s reasonable for an employer to train someone in the latest version of a programming language; it&#8217;s not reasonable for the employer to have to train him in the conceptual basics of programming.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Charlton</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/11/why-science-and-engineering-majors-change-their-minds/comment-page-1/#comment-375382</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Charlton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2011 11:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=27168#comment-375382</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Note:  Employers never paid for the training of employees.  Under the classical system of apprenticeship the apprentice &lt;em&gt;paid the Master&lt;/em&gt; a fee to be taken on, and worked for nothing &#8212; often for seven years. 

However, once he had been allowed to join the Guild, the apprentice (now Master) had the benefits of a protected trade, with fixed prices, control of competition, etc. A guaranteed livelihood &#8212; so long as you were prepared to work and obeyed the Guild. 

Indeed, much like medicine still is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note:  Employers never paid for the training of employees.  Under the classical system of apprenticeship the apprentice <em>paid the Master</em> a fee to be taken on, and worked for nothing &mdash; often for seven years. </p>
<p>However, once he had been allowed to join the Guild, the apprentice (now Master) had the benefits of a protected trade, with fixed prices, control of competition, etc. A guaranteed livelihood &mdash; so long as you were prepared to work and obeyed the Guild. </p>
<p>Indeed, much like medicine still is.</p>
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		<title>By: Alrenous</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/11/why-science-and-engineering-majors-change-their-minds/comment-page-1/#comment-375264</link>
		<dc:creator>Alrenous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2011 04:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=27168#comment-375264</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem I&#039;ve always had with this is that you can demonstrate just as much grit learning useful things. Veblen suggests, however, that being able to afford to learn useless things is higher status.

But imagine what you could do if you could afford a useless Ph.D. but put those resources toward something useful instead.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem I&#8217;ve always had with this is that you can demonstrate just as much grit learning useful things. Veblen suggests, however, that being able to afford to learn useless things is higher status.</p>
<p>But imagine what you could do if you could afford a useless Ph.D. but put those resources toward something useful instead.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Fouche</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/11/why-science-and-engineering-majors-change-their-minds/comment-page-1/#comment-375157</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Fouche</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2011 23:15:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=27168#comment-375157</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s an interactive process: employer shows a smidgen less loyalty to employee, employee shows a smidgen less loyalty to employer. Employee shows a smidgen less loyalty to employer, employer shows a little less loyalty to employee. And so round and round it goes. Where it stops is probably inland China, with both employer and employee replaced by their cheaper Chinese equivalent.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s an interactive process: employer shows a smidgen less loyalty to employee, employee shows a smidgen less loyalty to employer. Employee shows a smidgen less loyalty to employer, employer shows a little less loyalty to employee. And so round and round it goes. Where it stops is probably inland China, with both employer and employee replaced by their cheaper Chinese equivalent.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/11/why-science-and-engineering-majors-change-their-minds/comment-page-1/#comment-375122</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2011 21:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=27168#comment-375122</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Today&#039;s employers have little expectation of reaping the rewards of training their own employees, because they don&#039;t have any long-term agreement or expectation that the employees will stay.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Today&#8217;s employers have little expectation of reaping the rewards of training their own employees, because they don&#8217;t have any long-term agreement or expectation that the employees will stay.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Joseph Fouche</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/11/why-science-and-engineering-majors-change-their-minds/comment-page-1/#comment-375016</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Fouche</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2011 17:21:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=27168#comment-375016</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Massive government subsidization of education has warped the transmission of craft from experienced practitioners to inexperienced learners. 

Today&#039;s employers expect someone else, anyone else, to pay to train their employees, either by direct government appropriation  to education or workers paying for their own education (meaning indirect government appropriations to education). In olden times, employer had a direct tit for tat relationship with employee where the employer provided training in exchange for labor. This employer provided education took many forms, from the knout to apprenticeship, but it was direct.

One brother has the impression that the current unemployment rate was mostly caused by lazy people living on unemployment insurance since his large DJIA listed company had a still unfilled position after  nine months. I asked him if they&#039;d considered training someone, perhaps a junior employee, for the job. My brother said they were considering it training one junior employee but management was balking at the novelty. 

Most of the craft of software engineering I learned outside my degree path. Doing lower electives at the local community college helped since some of the adjunct professors were working software engineers but instruction by tenured faculty was often useless. Many of the software engineers churned out by the program came out with no skills other than the ability to provide textbook correct answers in bad Java. I&#039;ve been in many workplaces where the craft has not been passed since the young kids don&#039;t even know there is a craft.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Massive government subsidization of education has warped the transmission of craft from experienced practitioners to inexperienced learners. </p>
<p>Today&#8217;s employers expect someone else, anyone else, to pay to train their employees, either by direct government appropriation  to education or workers paying for their own education (meaning indirect government appropriations to education). In olden times, employer had a direct tit for tat relationship with employee where the employer provided training in exchange for labor. This employer provided education took many forms, from the knout to apprenticeship, but it was direct.</p>
<p>One brother has the impression that the current unemployment rate was mostly caused by lazy people living on unemployment insurance since his large DJIA listed company had a still unfilled position after  nine months. I asked him if they&#8217;d considered training someone, perhaps a junior employee, for the job. My brother said they were considering it training one junior employee but management was balking at the novelty. </p>
<p>Most of the craft of software engineering I learned outside my degree path. Doing lower electives at the local community college helped since some of the adjunct professors were working software engineers but instruction by tenured faculty was often useless. Many of the software engineers churned out by the program came out with no skills other than the ability to provide textbook correct answers in bad Java. I&#8217;ve been in many workplaces where the craft has not been passed since the young kids don&#8217;t even know there is a craft.</p>
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