<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Professors don&#8217;t train writers the way coaches train athletes</title>
	<atom:link href="https://www.isegoria.net/2011/07/professors-dont-train-writers-the-way-coaches-train-athletes/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/07/professors-dont-train-writers-the-way-coaches-train-athletes/</link>
	<description>From the ancient Greek for equality in freedom of speech; an eclectic mix of thoughts, large and small</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2026 16:05:08 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.6.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/07/professors-dont-train-writers-the-way-coaches-train-athletes/comment-page-1/#comment-310036</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2011 18:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=25757#comment-310036</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I believe the trick to this increased-feedback method of teaching is to reduce the &lt;em&gt;friction&lt;/em&gt; in the system &#8212; by using email to exchange drafts, rather than printing them out and physically bringing them to office hours &#8212; and to increase the &lt;em&gt;frequency&lt;/em&gt; of writing, but not the total &lt;em&gt;volume&lt;/em&gt;.

In fact, you could probably drop the two hours of lecture in favor of more reading and writing time &#8212; and students could probably revise one another&#039;s early drafts.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe the trick to this increased-feedback method of teaching is to reduce the <em>friction</em> in the system &mdash; by using email to exchange drafts, rather than printing them out and physically bringing them to office hours &mdash; and to increase the <em>frequency</em> of writing, but not the total <em>volume</em>.</p>
<p>In fact, you could probably drop the two hours of lecture in favor of more reading and writing time &mdash; and students could probably revise one another&#8217;s early drafts.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/07/professors-dont-train-writers-the-way-coaches-train-athletes/comment-page-1/#comment-310030</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2011 18:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=25757#comment-310030</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You bring up a sad but true point, Todd: &lt;em&gt;most people don&#039;t even read their own writing&lt;/em&gt;, let alone anyone else&#039;s.  Looking back, I think it&#039;s odd that &#8212; outside of, say, a creative writing class &#8212; students rarely even read each other&#039;s writing.

As for email, I think we need to distinguish between emails as emails and email as a medium for sharing text.  The professor in the article is using email as a way for students to send him drafts of papers, which aren&#039;t ordinary emails as emails.  That said, students probably need plenty of practice composing ordinary business emails &#8212; with capital letters and everything.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You bring up a sad but true point, Todd: <em>most people don&#8217;t even read their own writing</em>, let alone anyone else&#8217;s.  Looking back, I think it&#8217;s odd that &mdash; outside of, say, a creative writing class &mdash; students rarely even read each other&#8217;s writing.</p>
<p>As for email, I think we need to distinguish between emails as emails and email as a medium for sharing text.  The professor in the article is using email as a way for students to send him drafts of papers, which aren&#8217;t ordinary emails as emails.  That said, students probably need plenty of practice composing ordinary business emails &mdash; with capital letters and everything.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/07/professors-dont-train-writers-the-way-coaches-train-athletes/comment-page-1/#comment-310010</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2011 18:11:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=25757#comment-310010</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I can&#039;t disagree with the notion that the student needs to want to learn &#8212; but different teachers and different teaching styles profoundly affect motivation.

I think that&#039;s a powerful insight, that &lt;em&gt;too much feedback induces passivity&lt;/em&gt; &#8212; but I suspect the problem is &quot;free&quot; feedback on early, ungraded drafts.  It&#039;s too easy to let the teacher write your final, graded draft for you, bit by bit.

While I largely agree that students should learn by doing, I think the real reason for the master-apprentice model was always primarily economic.  In an era before student loans, you worked your way through &quot;trade school&quot; by doing all the least valuable work around the shop and waiting patiently for a chance to try something interesting with expensive materials.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t disagree with the notion that the student needs to want to learn &mdash; but different teachers and different teaching styles profoundly affect motivation.</p>
<p>I think that&#8217;s a powerful insight, that <em>too much feedback induces passivity</em> &mdash; but I suspect the problem is &#8220;free&#8221; feedback on early, ungraded drafts.  It&#8217;s too easy to let the teacher write your final, graded draft for you, bit by bit.</p>
<p>While I largely agree that students should learn by doing, I think the real reason for the master-apprentice model was always primarily economic.  In an era before student loans, you worked your way through &#8220;trade school&#8221; by doing all the least valuable work around the shop and waiting patiently for a chance to try something interesting with expensive materials.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brandoch Daha</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/07/professors-dont-train-writers-the-way-coaches-train-athletes/comment-page-1/#comment-309744</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandoch Daha</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jul 2011 12:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=25757#comment-309744</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When you look at the investment of time per student with this deal, the professor has become a tutor (or a master with an apprentice, as Bruce Charlton puts it), not a professor. Well, yes, if you can afford it, that&#039;s always been the best way to teach anything. In fact, I guess that&#039;s theoretically the way they teach graduate research assistants now. 

I don&#039;t see anything about this that&#039;s unique to writing. However: As the success criteria for a given skill get murkier and more subjective, the teacher needs more face time to communicate them effectively. And writing&#039;s pretty far along that curve.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When you look at the investment of time per student with this deal, the professor has become a tutor (or a master with an apprentice, as Bruce Charlton puts it), not a professor. Well, yes, if you can afford it, that&#8217;s always been the best way to teach anything. In fact, I guess that&#8217;s theoretically the way they teach graduate research assistants now. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see anything about this that&#8217;s unique to writing. However: As the success criteria for a given skill get murkier and more subjective, the teacher needs more face time to communicate them effectively. And writing&#8217;s pretty far along that curve.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Todd</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/07/professors-dont-train-writers-the-way-coaches-train-athletes/comment-page-1/#comment-309216</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jul 2011 20:52:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=25757#comment-309216</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I taught writing for a number of years, and the single most important factor in improving a student&#039;s writing was feedback &#8212; one&#039;s own voice. The majority of writers don&#039;t even read their own writing. Most people catch mistakes and improve if they read aloud what they&#039;ve written. If students aren&#039;t willing to listen to their own voices, then they aren&#039;t ready to be taught.

Writing as one speaks will only get the student so far. Soon they need to be exposed to different voices and styles of discourse so that they may choose the appropriate one that fits the occasion and purpose. The best way to gain exposure is through deep and wide reading, and there&#039;s no substitute.

Writing emails is just one kind of discourse that is growing for 75% of the population; and although fun, accessible for youths, and low pressure, it&#039;s not the kind of writing that necessarily engenders deep critical thought or builds analytic skills. 

&#8212; Wait, don&#039;t go to sleep... I&#039;m totally being serious here! Hang on, click on these links for some really funny cat pictures. ROFLMAO]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I taught writing for a number of years, and the single most important factor in improving a student&#8217;s writing was feedback &mdash; one&#8217;s own voice. The majority of writers don&#8217;t even read their own writing. Most people catch mistakes and improve if they read aloud what they&#8217;ve written. If students aren&#8217;t willing to listen to their own voices, then they aren&#8217;t ready to be taught.</p>
<p>Writing as one speaks will only get the student so far. Soon they need to be exposed to different voices and styles of discourse so that they may choose the appropriate one that fits the occasion and purpose. The best way to gain exposure is through deep and wide reading, and there&#8217;s no substitute.</p>
<p>Writing emails is just one kind of discourse that is growing for 75% of the population; and although fun, accessible for youths, and low pressure, it&#8217;s not the kind of writing that necessarily engenders deep critical thought or builds analytic skills. </p>
<p>&mdash; Wait, don&#8217;t go to sleep&#8230; I&#8217;m totally being serious here! Hang on, click on these links for some really funny cat pictures. ROFLMAO</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bruce Charlton</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/07/professors-dont-train-writers-the-way-coaches-train-athletes/comment-page-1/#comment-308964</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Charlton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jul 2011 13:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=25757#comment-308964</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To play devil&#039;s advocate &#8212; I disagree!

The first requirement is that the student wants to learn how to write.  This could be intrinsic, or could be because it is necessary to get qualifications. 

After that what is needed is multiple and frequent submission of writing that is marked. 

Too much feedback induces passivity &#8212; the student needs to &lt;em&gt;work out for themselves&lt;/em&gt; how to get better marks next time.  If they can do this, then they will learn how to write. 

The underlying skill of writing is learning to read your own stuff objectively. Getting detailed feedback from others usually interferes with this. 

We have known for thousands of years what context teaches skill.  The answer is prolonged apprenticeship with loads of observation of the master and repetition by the apprentice. 

Some masters can teach, but many can not.  Luckily it is not necessary. All the master needs to do is be able to evaluate the apprentice&#039;s work. 

At the most basic, the master simply accepts or rejects the apprentice&#039;s work, and maybe points out mistakes &#8212; but not how to fix them; the apprentice assimilates &#039;how&#039; by observation, by working-with. 

Harsh, but it works.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To play devil&#8217;s advocate &mdash; I disagree!</p>
<p>The first requirement is that the student wants to learn how to write.  This could be intrinsic, or could be because it is necessary to get qualifications. </p>
<p>After that what is needed is multiple and frequent submission of writing that is marked. </p>
<p>Too much feedback induces passivity &mdash; the student needs to <em>work out for themselves</em> how to get better marks next time.  If they can do this, then they will learn how to write. </p>
<p>The underlying skill of writing is learning to read your own stuff objectively. Getting detailed feedback from others usually interferes with this. </p>
<p>We have known for thousands of years what context teaches skill.  The answer is prolonged apprenticeship with loads of observation of the master and repetition by the apprentice. </p>
<p>Some masters can teach, but many can not.  Luckily it is not necessary. All the master needs to do is be able to evaluate the apprentice&#8217;s work. </p>
<p>At the most basic, the master simply accepts or rejects the apprentice&#8217;s work, and maybe points out mistakes &mdash; but not how to fix them; the apprentice assimilates &#8216;how&#8217; by observation, by working-with. </p>
<p>Harsh, but it works.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/07/professors-dont-train-writers-the-way-coaches-train-athletes/comment-page-1/#comment-308512</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jul 2011 03:28:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=25757#comment-308512</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Excellent, Aretae.  Please do report back!  It certainly seems like more writing with more feedback should lead to better writing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent, Aretae.  Please do report back!  It certainly seems like more writing with more feedback should lead to better writing.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Aretae</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/07/professors-dont-train-writers-the-way-coaches-train-athletes/comment-page-1/#comment-308369</link>
		<dc:creator>Aretae</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jul 2011 21:07:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=25757#comment-308369</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m actually hoping to do an empirical test of the value of this in a high school writing class this coming school year.  I, like you, think that it&#039;s an obviously high value.  But I want the test in order to confirm.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m actually hoping to do an empirical test of the value of this in a high school writing class this coming school year.  I, like you, think that it&#8217;s an obviously high value.  But I want the test in order to confirm.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
