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	<title>Comments on: The Carlylean Atheist’s God</title>
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	<description>From the ancient Greek for equality in freedom of speech; an eclectic mix of thoughts, large and small</description>
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		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/01/the-carlylean-atheists-god/comment-page-1/#comment-103484</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=23194#comment-103484</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lee Harris has some fascinating &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.isegoria.net/2007/10/the-future-of-tradition/&quot;&gt;thoughts&lt;/a&gt; on this subject:
&lt;blockquote&gt;A tradition, [Hayek] realizes, may well be justified by a community on nonsensical or irrational grounds; but this by itself need not make the tradition less useful to those who follow it. If a primitive tribe justifies its incest taboo with a myth about divine siblings whose sexual liaison produced a monstrously deformed cockroach, this does not make the tradition a bit less useful to the community.
[...]
For implicit in this observation is the insight that every inherited tradition has come down to us at two distinct levels — first, as a behavioral phenomenon, as an embodied value hardwired into our neural circuitry and into our sweat glands, and secondly, as an articulated value that can be analyzed and discussed, attacked and defended, in words.

In the case of the tradition against incest, at the primary level it exists in the form of the commandments, injunctions, prohibition, and so on, to keep brothers and sisters, or parents and children, from having sexual intercourse. They work by programming the members of the community to automatically and instinctively avoid committing incest. They constitute the visceral code of the community that commands us to act in certain ways and forbids us to act in other ways.

At the secondary level, there is what might be called (to use Marxist terminology) the ideological superstructure; i.e., the system of myths and statements and arguments that are used by the community to justify obedience to the commandments, injunctions, and prohibitions. In the case of our islander, this secondary level is represented by the myth of the gigantic cockroach spawned by incest. This ideological superstructure may be used polemically and apologetically as well and is often most fully developed and exploited for this purpose, frequently ending up in immense intellectual constructions that are Summa contra Gentiles: everything that can be argued against those who challenge the truth of the ideological superstructure.

In evaluating whether a “tradition” is useful or not, we must keep this distinction in mind. For when confronted with any particular tradition, we now have two different criteria to evaluate its usefulness — first, the usefulness of the tradition’s base, the visceral code out of which the social structure of the community is created, and second, the usefulness of the tradition’s ideological superstructure.

But once we grasp this distinction, it immediately becomes apparent that there can be a conflict, perhaps violent, between the two manifestations of one tradition: the embodied and visceral version versus the articulated and ideal version. In our primitive island’s traditional taboo against incest, for example, the visceral form of the tradition might succeed in preventing inbreeding among the islanders by producing visceral aversion; yet its articulated form, namely, the myth of the monstrously deformed cockroach, may work quite differently. Indeed, as the islanders become more and more sophisticated, the continued use of this myth may actually tend to make people more likely to violate the visceral code and to commit incest on the basis of the quite correct empirical belief that incestuous unions do not produce gigantic deformed cockroaches.

This means that as a population becomes more “enlightened,” it is more likely to challenge the tradition on the basis of its transparently mythic or fabulous origin; this in turn threatens to undermine the population’s willingness to instill the visceral code into its children. If “everyone” knows that incestuous lovers do not spawn enormous insect children, then what is the point of teaching one’s children not to commit incest?&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lee Harris has some fascinating <a href="http://www.isegoria.net/2007/10/the-future-of-tradition/">thoughts</a> on this subject:</p>
<blockquote><p>A tradition, [Hayek] realizes, may well be justified by a community on nonsensical or irrational grounds; but this by itself need not make the tradition less useful to those who follow it. If a primitive tribe justifies its incest taboo with a myth about divine siblings whose sexual liaison produced a monstrously deformed cockroach, this does not make the tradition a bit less useful to the community.<br />
[...]<br />
For implicit in this observation is the insight that every inherited tradition has come down to us at two distinct levels — first, as a behavioral phenomenon, as an embodied value hardwired into our neural circuitry and into our sweat glands, and secondly, as an articulated value that can be analyzed and discussed, attacked and defended, in words.</p>
<p>In the case of the tradition against incest, at the primary level it exists in the form of the commandments, injunctions, prohibition, and so on, to keep brothers and sisters, or parents and children, from having sexual intercourse. They work by programming the members of the community to automatically and instinctively avoid committing incest. They constitute the visceral code of the community that commands us to act in certain ways and forbids us to act in other ways.</p>
<p>At the secondary level, there is what might be called (to use Marxist terminology) the ideological superstructure; i.e., the system of myths and statements and arguments that are used by the community to justify obedience to the commandments, injunctions, and prohibitions. In the case of our islander, this secondary level is represented by the myth of the gigantic cockroach spawned by incest. This ideological superstructure may be used polemically and apologetically as well and is often most fully developed and exploited for this purpose, frequently ending up in immense intellectual constructions that are Summa contra Gentiles: everything that can be argued against those who challenge the truth of the ideological superstructure.</p>
<p>In evaluating whether a “tradition” is useful or not, we must keep this distinction in mind. For when confronted with any particular tradition, we now have two different criteria to evaluate its usefulness — first, the usefulness of the tradition’s base, the visceral code out of which the social structure of the community is created, and second, the usefulness of the tradition’s ideological superstructure.</p>
<p>But once we grasp this distinction, it immediately becomes apparent that there can be a conflict, perhaps violent, between the two manifestations of one tradition: the embodied and visceral version versus the articulated and ideal version. In our primitive island’s traditional taboo against incest, for example, the visceral form of the tradition might succeed in preventing inbreeding among the islanders by producing visceral aversion; yet its articulated form, namely, the myth of the monstrously deformed cockroach, may work quite differently. Indeed, as the islanders become more and more sophisticated, the continued use of this myth may actually tend to make people more likely to violate the visceral code and to commit incest on the basis of the quite correct empirical belief that incestuous unions do not produce gigantic deformed cockroaches.</p>
<p>This means that as a population becomes more “enlightened,” it is more likely to challenge the tradition on the basis of its transparently mythic or fabulous origin; this in turn threatens to undermine the population’s willingness to instill the visceral code into its children. If “everyone” knows that incestuous lovers do not spawn enormous insect children, then what is the point of teaching one’s children not to commit incest?</p></blockquote>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/01/the-carlylean-atheists-god/comment-page-1/#comment-103474</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:23:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=23194#comment-103474</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If being an atheist is simple &#8212; either you believe in a supernatural deity or not &#8212; that does &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; mean that no religious scholar has any useful knowledge or that no religious act has any useful effects on the individual or the community.  I &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.isegoria.net/2009/08/political-survival-catholic-theology-and-marxist-frameworks/&quot;&gt;cited&lt;/a&gt; Anomaly UK on this a while back:
&lt;blockquote&gt;I have a bit of an interest in Catholic theology, on the basis that since this is what the brightest minds half the world could produce spent about a thousand years on, it is likely to have some value, even if it is fundamentally flawed.

In the same way, a large proportion of political science in the twentieth century was carried out in a Marxist framework, and while it is no doubt the worse for it, it is a stretch to dismiss it as worthless, less worthy as a point of comparison than Hobbes or Machiavelli, or to examine Lenin and Mao as political practitioners without giving any attention to the theories they expounded before coming to power.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If being an atheist is simple &mdash; either you believe in a supernatural deity or not &mdash; that does <em>not</em> mean that no religious scholar has any useful knowledge or that no religious act has any useful effects on the individual or the community.  I <a href="http://www.isegoria.net/2009/08/political-survival-catholic-theology-and-marxist-frameworks/">cited</a> Anomaly UK on this a while back:</p>
<blockquote><p>I have a bit of an interest in Catholic theology, on the basis that since this is what the brightest minds half the world could produce spent about a thousand years on, it is likely to have some value, even if it is fundamentally flawed.</p>
<p>In the same way, a large proportion of political science in the twentieth century was carried out in a Marxist framework, and while it is no doubt the worse for it, it is a stretch to dismiss it as worthless, less worthy as a point of comparison than Hobbes or Machiavelli, or to examine Lenin and Mao as political practitioners without giving any attention to the theories they expounded before coming to power.</p></blockquote>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/01/the-carlylean-atheists-god/comment-page-1/#comment-103470</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=23194#comment-103470</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I briefly (overnight) took down some posts that could be interpreted as snarky (including my own) or righteously indignant, in order to let things cool down, rather than heat up into a flame war.  I respectfully ask that we not start up the &lt;em&gt;ad hominem&lt;/em&gt; attacks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I briefly (overnight) took down some posts that could be interpreted as snarky (including my own) or righteously indignant, in order to let things cool down, rather than heat up into a flame war.  I respectfully ask that we not start up the <em>ad hominem</em> attacks.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tatyana</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/01/the-carlylean-atheists-god/comment-page-1/#comment-102980</link>
		<dc:creator>Tatyana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jan 2011 23:37:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=23194#comment-102980</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I see my comments and good deal of preceding discussion disappeared from the thread. In their absence my comment is incomprehensible.

Now I will think twice before posting a comment in a place where opinions are censored.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see my comments and good deal of preceding discussion disappeared from the thread. In their absence my comment is incomprehensible.</p>
<p>Now I will think twice before posting a comment in a place where opinions are censored.</p>
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		<title>By: Tatyana</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/01/the-carlylean-atheists-god/comment-page-1/#comment-102978</link>
		<dc:creator>Tatyana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jan 2011 23:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=23194#comment-102978</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Besides, the comparison is not apt.

Atheism is not a society or a club. Being an atheist is very simple business: either you don&#039;t believe in existence of supernatural deity or you do. Everything else stems from there.

If you don&#039;t, why would you subject your child, the most precious and dear person in the world, to brainwashing by people who believe in imaginary beings? By assigning believers to take control over the mind of his child he would tacitly declare that he considers his own moral code, his own outlook in life is inferior. Thus he would stop being an atheist, by definition &#8212; since he&#039;d defer to &quot;higher authority&quot; in which he supposedly does not believe if he was an atheist.

Same goes to alleged Fallaci&#039;s question to Pope. As I said earlier, why would an atheist (who, again, by definition does not assign authority to priests and shamans on the basis of their being a snake oil salesmen) ask for guidance from one such shaman? He wouldn&#039;t, or he is not an atheist. Calling someone who is confused in his beliefs an atheist - is the same fallacy as calling American lefties &quot;liberals&quot;. They are the opposite of definition, and so is the &quot;atheist&quot; Mencius describes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Besides, the comparison is not apt.</p>
<p>Atheism is not a society or a club. Being an atheist is very simple business: either you don&#8217;t believe in existence of supernatural deity or you do. Everything else stems from there.</p>
<p>If you don&#8217;t, why would you subject your child, the most precious and dear person in the world, to brainwashing by people who believe in imaginary beings? By assigning believers to take control over the mind of his child he would tacitly declare that he considers his own moral code, his own outlook in life is inferior. Thus he would stop being an atheist, by definition &mdash; since he&#8217;d defer to &#8220;higher authority&#8221; in which he supposedly does not believe if he was an atheist.</p>
<p>Same goes to alleged Fallaci&#8217;s question to Pope. As I said earlier, why would an atheist (who, again, by definition does not assign authority to priests and shamans on the basis of their being a snake oil salesmen) ask for guidance from one such shaman? He wouldn&#8217;t, or he is not an atheist. Calling someone who is confused in his beliefs an atheist &#8211; is the same fallacy as calling American lefties &#8220;liberals&#8221;. They are the opposite of definition, and so is the &#8220;atheist&#8221; Mencius describes.</p>
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		<title>By: Tatyana</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/01/the-carlylean-atheists-god/comment-page-1/#comment-102963</link>
		<dc:creator>Tatyana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jan 2011 23:17:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=23194#comment-102963</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anomaly UK does... not remind me of anybody.

I don&#039;t keep company with cowards who speak of present people as if they are not standing right there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anomaly UK does&#8230; not remind me of anybody.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t keep company with cowards who speak of present people as if they are not standing right there.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Anomaly UK</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/01/the-carlylean-atheists-god/comment-page-1/#comment-102952</link>
		<dc:creator>Anomaly UK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jan 2011 22:42:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=23194#comment-102952</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tatyana reminds me of the people who kicked a guy I knew out of the Vegetarian Society &#8212; because he smoked and drove a Porsche.  No &lt;em&gt;true&lt;/em&gt; vegetarian would do those things.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tatyana reminds me of the people who kicked a guy I knew out of the Vegetarian Society &mdash; because he smoked and drove a Porsche.  No <em>true</em> vegetarian would do those things.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tatyana</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/01/the-carlylean-atheists-god/comment-page-1/#comment-102923</link>
		<dc:creator>Tatyana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:10:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=23194#comment-102923</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You are distorting the meaning of my words.  I am the one taking Mencius at his word, and you are making a mesh of my comment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are distorting the meaning of my words.  I am the one taking Mencius at his word, and you are making a mesh of my comment.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bruce G Charlton</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/01/the-carlylean-atheists-god/comment-page-1/#comment-102844</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce G Charlton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jan 2011 18:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=23194#comment-102844</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Would it be fair then, Bruce, to say that you became disenchanted with — and alienated within — the modern bureaucratic world, which led you via neo-Paganism to Christianity?&quot;

(Reluctant at being summarized so easily) I suppose so....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Would it be fair then, Bruce, to say that you became disenchanted with — and alienated within — the modern bureaucratic world, which led you via neo-Paganism to Christianity?&#8221;</p>
<p>(Reluctant at being summarized so easily) I suppose so&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2011/01/the-carlylean-atheists-god/comment-page-1/#comment-102831</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jan 2011 18:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=23194#comment-102831</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m distorting your words, because I take Moldbug at his word that he&#039;s an atheist?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m distorting your words, because I take Moldbug at his word that he&#8217;s an atheist?</p>
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