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	<title>Comments on: Who would pay government salaries in a charter city?</title>
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	<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2010/05/who-would-pay-government-salaries-in-a-charter-city/</link>
	<description>From the ancient Greek for equality in freedom of speech; an eclectic mix of thoughts, large and small</description>
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		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2010/05/who-would-pay-government-salaries-in-a-charter-city/comment-page-1/#comment-2874</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 May 2010 15:09:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=6071#comment-2874</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Romer discussion continues &lt;a href=&quot;http://aretae.blogspot.com/2010/05/arguments-around-paul-romer.html&quot;&gt;chez Aretae&lt;/a&gt;, where &lt;a href=&quot;http://intellectual-detox.com/&quot;&gt;Devin Finbarr&lt;/a&gt; enters the fray and &lt;a href=&quot;http://foseti.wordpress.com/&quot;&gt;Foseti&lt;/a&gt; continues to fight the good(-natured) fight.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Romer discussion continues <a href="http://aretae.blogspot.com/2010/05/arguments-around-paul-romer.html">chez Aretae</a>, where <a href="http://intellectual-detox.com/">Devin Finbarr</a> enters the fray and <a href="http://foseti.wordpress.com/">Foseti</a> continues to fight the good(-natured) fight.</p>
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		<title>By: Aretae</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2010/05/who-would-pay-government-salaries-in-a-charter-city/comment-page-1/#comment-2793</link>
		<dc:creator>Aretae</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 May 2010 14:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=6071#comment-2793</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That hypothesis doesn&#039;t fit Romer&#039;s prior career.  Mine does.

Romer is an economist specializing in new growth theory &#8212; he&#039;s one of the seminal figures in the movement &#8212; and his work says that roughly &lt;em&gt;all&lt;/em&gt; economic growth is knowledge growth.  Romer is about increasing knowledge to increase growth, which is the only &lt;em&gt;big&lt;/em&gt; issue besides violence and war.

Romer also knows that knowledge &lt;em&gt;only&lt;/em&gt; increases by trying new stuff &#8212; and then he read public choice and saw that government institutions basically don&#039;t change their rules.  Hence governments don&#039;t increase knowledge and don&#039;t get better.

Since his obsession is growth, by means of trying new stuff, it&#039;s hardly fair to say he&#039;s only echoing the boring Moldbug hypothesis. He&#039;s far smarter than that, and besides, politically mostly liberal.

His line is that you don&#039;t know what will work best, and neither does he.  At best he&#039;s pushing neocameralism for a first try, in order to garner some extra support for his actual radical position of trying lots of different things.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That hypothesis doesn&#8217;t fit Romer&#8217;s prior career.  Mine does.</p>
<p>Romer is an economist specializing in new growth theory &mdash; he&#8217;s one of the seminal figures in the movement &mdash; and his work says that roughly <em>all</em> economic growth is knowledge growth.  Romer is about increasing knowledge to increase growth, which is the only <em>big</em> issue besides violence and war.</p>
<p>Romer also knows that knowledge <em>only</em> increases by trying new stuff &mdash; and then he read public choice and saw that government institutions basically don&#8217;t change their rules.  Hence governments don&#8217;t increase knowledge and don&#8217;t get better.</p>
<p>Since his obsession is growth, by means of trying new stuff, it&#8217;s hardly fair to say he&#8217;s only echoing the boring Moldbug hypothesis. He&#8217;s far smarter than that, and besides, politically mostly liberal.</p>
<p>His line is that you don&#8217;t know what will work best, and neither does he.  At best he&#8217;s pushing neocameralism for a first try, in order to garner some extra support for his actual radical position of trying lots of different things.</p>
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		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2010/05/who-would-pay-government-salaries-in-a-charter-city/comment-page-1/#comment-2757</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 May 2010 01:29:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=6071#comment-2757</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Romer is politically astute enough to say &quot;let&#039;s just try some things out and see what works,&quot; while proffering up one such experiment that just happens to look like Moldbuggian &lt;em&gt;neocameralism&lt;/em&gt; to those who might recognize it, rather than to suggest &quot;a return to colonialism, with most of the kinks worked out.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Romer is politically astute enough to say &#8220;let&#8217;s just try some things out and see what works,&#8221; while proffering up one such experiment that just happens to look like Moldbuggian <em>neocameralism</em> to those who might recognize it, rather than to suggest &#8220;a return to colonialism, with most of the kinks worked out.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Aretae</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2010/05/who-would-pay-government-salaries-in-a-charter-city/comment-page-1/#comment-2753</link>
		<dc:creator>Aretae</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 May 2010 21:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=6071#comment-2753</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re-reading the quotation, and double-commenting:

You&#039;re focusing on this subsidiary phasing:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;If the development authority initially owns the unoccupied land, it will capture huge gains as the city grows.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

while the important part of his approach is:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;One possible revenue source is...&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re-reading the quotation, and double-commenting:</p>
<p>You&#8217;re focusing on this subsidiary phasing:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;If the development authority initially owns the unoccupied land, it will capture huge gains as the city grows.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>while the important part of his approach is:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;One possible revenue source is&#8230;&#8221;</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Aretae</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2010/05/who-would-pay-government-salaries-in-a-charter-city/comment-page-1/#comment-2752</link>
		<dc:creator>Aretae</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 May 2010 21:33:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=6071#comment-2752</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Romer is smarter than any of y&#039;all are giving credit for.  Romer&#039;s &lt;em&gt;main&lt;/em&gt; line: we &lt;em&gt;don&#039;t know&lt;/em&gt; what works well as governance institutions.  Anyone who says they do is full of fecal material.  As I&#039;ve recently said in arguing with Devin, can you name a growth-promoting, stable government system?  I can&#039;t.  

Romer&#039;s line is: we need very badly to &lt;em&gt;try&lt;/em&gt; new legal arrangements, because our current ones are ossified, and because abstract theorizing about what will work, without experiment, is a guaranteed path to epic fail.  

You&#039;re discussing one specific proposal, not his direction.  I&#039;m happy to believe that he is or was temporarily focused on that specific proposal as well, but the specific proposal is irrelevant.  What matters is the framework: Try new stuff, don&#039;t use old standard law, experiment with new options.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Romer is smarter than any of y&#8217;all are giving credit for.  Romer&#8217;s <em>main</em> line: we <em>don&#8217;t know</em> what works well as governance institutions.  Anyone who says they do is full of fecal material.  As I&#8217;ve recently said in arguing with Devin, can you name a growth-promoting, stable government system?  I can&#8217;t.  </p>
<p>Romer&#8217;s line is: we need very badly to <em>try</em> new legal arrangements, because our current ones are ossified, and because abstract theorizing about what will work, without experiment, is a guaranteed path to epic fail.  </p>
<p>You&#8217;re discussing one specific proposal, not his direction.  I&#8217;m happy to believe that he is or was temporarily focused on that specific proposal as well, but the specific proposal is irrelevant.  What matters is the framework: Try new stuff, don&#8217;t use old standard law, experiment with new options.</p>
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		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2010/05/who-would-pay-government-salaries-in-a-charter-city/comment-page-1/#comment-2662</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 May 2010 15:17:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=6071#comment-2662</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I realize you&#039;re joking about &lt;em&gt;serfdom&lt;/em&gt; &#8212; which is technically tenancy &lt;em&gt;with no right to leave the land&lt;/em&gt; &#8212; but I thought I&#039;d clarify that what Romer is suggesting is traditional &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fee_simple&quot;&gt;fee simple&lt;/a&gt; (or freehold) land ownership &#8212; in which the land &quot;owner&quot; is still limited by the four basic government powers of &lt;em&gt;taxation&lt;/em&gt;, &lt;em&gt;eminent domain&lt;/em&gt;, &lt;em&gt;police power&lt;/em&gt;, and (more obscurely) &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escheat&quot;&gt;escheat&lt;/a&gt;.  The owner pays no rent, manages the land how he wishes, and can rent or sell the land, but he still pays property taxes and is subject to the law of &lt;em&gt;the&lt;/em&gt; land.

The state itself may hold an &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title&quot;&gt;allodial title&lt;/a&gt;; it&#039;s truly sovereign.

What Romer mentions but does not emphasize is that the sovereign in a charter city is not a democratically elected government; the people offer their consent to be governed by &lt;em&gt;coming to the charter city&lt;/em&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realize you&#8217;re joking about <em>serfdom</em> &mdash; which is technically tenancy <em>with no right to leave the land</em> &mdash; but I thought I&#8217;d clarify that what Romer is suggesting is traditional <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fee_simple">fee simple</a> (or freehold) land ownership &mdash; in which the land &#8220;owner&#8221; is still limited by the four basic government powers of <em>taxation</em>, <em>eminent domain</em>, <em>police power</em>, and (more obscurely) <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escheat">escheat</a>.  The owner pays no rent, manages the land how he wishes, and can rent or sell the land, but he still pays property taxes and is subject to the law of <em>the</em> land.</p>
<p>The state itself may hold an <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title">allodial title</a>; it&#8217;s truly sovereign.</p>
<p>What Romer mentions but does not emphasize is that the sovereign in a charter city is not a democratically elected government; the people offer their consent to be governed by <em>coming to the charter city</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: Foseti</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2010/05/who-would-pay-government-salaries-in-a-charter-city/comment-page-1/#comment-2659</link>
		<dc:creator>Foseti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 May 2010 14:22:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[True, which further proves Moldbug&#039;s point that Romer is just ripping off old (unfashionable) ideas, re-branding them, and calling them his own.

First colonialism and now serfdom!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True, which further proves Moldbug&#8217;s point that Romer is just ripping off old (unfashionable) ideas, re-branding them, and calling them his own.</p>
<p>First colonialism and now serfdom!</p>
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		<title>By: Isegoria</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2010/05/who-would-pay-government-salaries-in-a-charter-city/comment-page-1/#comment-2658</link>
		<dc:creator>Isegoria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 May 2010 13:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=6071#comment-2658</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I assume Romer has been reading Moldbug, but Moldbug&#039;s ideas don&#039;t start with Moldbug; they go way, way back.  Agricultural land has a long history of being &quot;owned&quot; to various degrees, with different parties holding different rights, and many historic arrangements approximated a land value tax, with the tax authority owed some fraction of the expected (not actual) yield of a plot.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I assume Romer has been reading Moldbug, but Moldbug&#8217;s ideas don&#8217;t start with Moldbug; they go way, way back.  Agricultural land has a long history of being &#8220;owned&#8221; to various degrees, with different parties holding different rights, and many historic arrangements approximated a land value tax, with the tax authority owed some fraction of the expected (not actual) yield of a plot.</p>
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		<title>By: Foseti</title>
		<link>https://www.isegoria.net/2010/05/who-would-pay-government-salaries-in-a-charter-city/comment-page-1/#comment-2655</link>
		<dc:creator>Foseti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 May 2010 13:07:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.isegoria.net/?p=6071#comment-2655</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Do you think Romer has been reading Moldbug, even if he won&#039;t speak at a conference with him?

Here&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/12/why-i-am-not-libertarian.html&quot;&gt;Moldbug on property&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Property is any stable structure of monopoly control. You own something if you alone control it. Your control is stable if no one else will take it away from you. This control may be assured by your own powers of violence, or it may be delegated by a higher power. If the former, it is secondary property. If the latter, it is primary or sovereign property.

The key observation about primary and secondary property is that the two are much more similar than they may seem.

If the structure of property is stable and all transfers are voluntary exchanges, there is no praxeological distinction between primary and secondary property. If it is impossible for an aggressor to profit by unilaterally adjusting property rights in her favor, it does not matter why it is impossible. The aggressor could be prevented because her aggression is physically impractical, because it will be reversed by a police authority, because it will be punished by a nuclear strike, etc, etc. The important distinction is between a system in which aggression occurs, and a system in which no aggression occurs.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Isn&#039;t Romer just giving the charter city primary property rights?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you think Romer has been reading Moldbug, even if he won&#8217;t speak at a conference with him?</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s <a href="http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/12/why-i-am-not-libertarian.html">Moldbug on property</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Property is any stable structure of monopoly control. You own something if you alone control it. Your control is stable if no one else will take it away from you. This control may be assured by your own powers of violence, or it may be delegated by a higher power. If the former, it is secondary property. If the latter, it is primary or sovereign property.</p>
<p>The key observation about primary and secondary property is that the two are much more similar than they may seem.</p>
<p>If the structure of property is stable and all transfers are voluntary exchanges, there is no praxeological distinction between primary and secondary property. If it is impossible for an aggressor to profit by unilaterally adjusting property rights in her favor, it does not matter why it is impossible. The aggressor could be prevented because her aggression is physically impractical, because it will be reversed by a police authority, because it will be punished by a nuclear strike, etc, etc. The important distinction is between a system in which aggression occurs, and a system in which no aggression occurs.</p></blockquote>
<p>Isn&#8217;t Romer just giving the charter city primary property rights?</p>
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