With notably few exceptions, so-called “HBD” (or “human biodiversity”) is a movement that exists largely within the confines of the Internet, Misdreavus notes:
This, of course, has done absolutely no favors to its dispersal within society at large, because if technology has taught us anything, it is that the anonymity of the web tends to bring out the crazy and stupid in everyone, Surely there was a time when people actually tried to research certain topics before launching a slurry of half-baked and inchoate opinions with an audacious (and entirely unwarranted) degree of self-confidence — not so much because people were any better informed in yesteryear than they are today, but because certain structural barriers posed an impediment to the crazy and incompetent expressing their ideas in lofty places. Now that (most of) these have been safely dismantled, we’ve got nutters from Stormfront sparring tête-à-tête with anthropology professors over elementary facts that anybody can look up in a linguistics textbook. How splendid is that.
As Jay Man adds, “If the facts about heritable human differences are to be ever taken seriously, it needs to be extricated from such utter nonsense, as well as from the mean-spirited sentiment.”
Too many blogs are being dragged down by ignoramuses, T. Greer says:
There are smart people among the Neoreactionaries. Many of them are very, very smart. I don’t always support their politics, but some are interesting to read and others even a pleasure to engage with.
But beneath these intellectuals lies a mob. It used to be that the reactionary rank and file was a bunch of computer scientists and engineers who had nothing better to do with their spare time than play around with the EconLib. But now the reactionaries have breached the public consciousness and achieved the sort of ‘critical mass’ to keep the movement from sizzling out. A pity. With few exceptions (say, the commentators at Isegoria), the reactionary masses are crude, savage, and just as caught up in mindless groupthink as the “Cathedral” ever was. (And the folks from Chateu Heariste/Red Pill group are all of this but worse.)
And now they spread. It has been sad to watch the comment sections of several different blogs I follow fall apart over the last month. Over at Gene Expression Razib is accused of the Lewtonian fallacy; over at Slate Star Codex Alexander Scott is closing comment threads and introducing mods to keep the place under control; at the West Hunter discussion mentioned above one must wade through 10 posts of utter intellectual muck just to find the participants who actually know what they are talking about.
One of the major reasons I have never written anything explicitly HBD or in response to reactionary ideas (some of which I sympathize with) is that I know that will summon the hordes. I just don’t want to deal with that.
We do try to avoid being crude, savage, and mindlessly groupthinky.
This is an extreme exaggeration. There is no doubt that some losers have started calling themselves Neoreactionaries but most comment threads are still kicking pretty well. Most of the hordes on the far right are of the WN/Alt-right movement, not NRx. I think T Greer doth protest too much just to explain his own hesitancy.
I don’t think anyone outside of the neo-reactionary quasi-movement draws much distinction between HBD and WN.
This is that thing where, if you are a presidential candidate and you are pals with an unrepentant terrorist and your spiritual mentor is a guy who screams “God damn America” from the pulpit, that is no big deal and really just paranoid trivia, a fake scandal, but if you run a blog on the internet with opinions to the right of the Overton window and somebody leaves a stupid comment in your unmoderated comment section, you are totally discredited and really should be banned from expressing yourself ever again.
In the real world it matters whether our laws are based on reality or on fantasy. Societies rise or fall based upon how firmly based in the real world their laws and law enforcement are.
Political correctness serves the elites very well. But some of us who happen to hate Nazis and White Nationalists also cannot allow these destructive fantasy-based laws or faulty notions of pseudo-science to go unchallenged.
There is no realistic scientific doubt about significant statistical differences in cognitive ability between widely dispersed (historically isolated) breeding groups, and that most of those differences originate in gene expression.
I understand Jay Man’s reluctance to face HBD statistical facts. Misdreavus may also belong to an “oppressed minority” and wish to keep his PC card.
The bloggers you highlight above seem mainly about polishing their own medals, and assuring readers of their kosher affiliations. Setting themselves above the pack and basking in self-congratulation. But the real world repercussions of turning one’s back on reality and allowing government to make whatever laws it wants are very grave.
People lose their jobs every day in standing up against PC bullshit. Instead of politely turning one’s back while an economy slowly implodes by nepotistic corruption, a bit more brutal honesty might be called for.
Hello gents.
Just a few reminders on the context in which these comments were given.
1. The Westhunter thread
It is atrocious. And not in the “oh, these people keep saying stuff that offends my delicate politically correct sensibilities” way, but in the “what gives these rabid high school kids the idea they know enough about haplogroups, historical phonology, or the archeology of horse domestication to even participate in the conversation?” And so also at Slate Star Codex and Gene Expression (the comments there were probably the most embarrassing of all.)
My impression is that this dumbing down of the commentariat is a fairly new situation. Contemplationist suggests that these guys are from the “WN/Alt-right movement, not NRx,” but I think that is kind of my broader point — NRx has reached a level of prominence where the WN/Alt-right folks have flooded into what used to be a purely NRx space. When NRx started out it was not really a community or a movement at all — just a collection of data-driven intellectuals fed up with political correctness.
That just really is not the case anymore.
2. Harkness says:
“[those bloggers] seem mainly about polishing their own medals, and assuring readers of their kosher affiliations”
Again, see the context in which the comments were left. All were left in the comment threads of HBD-themed blogs. Folks in these comment threads are not impressed with Kosher affiliations. And as my non-NRx readers don’t follow those blogs, they would never read the conversation. Just who are we trying to look good for?
A lot of this is anger at the current politically correct platitudes, by people who are sick of seeing their world trashed by snotty elites, and are hitting back in any way they can. Of course, as has been noted, 80% of anything is crap, and that goes for Reaction as well. But in my experience, the reactionary commenters are no stupider than the lefties over at places like “Huffington Post”, just angrier, because, up until now, the reactionaries have been a) silenced, and b) on the losing side. We have also all grown up in a society where we have been sensitized much more to extremism from the Right, than extremism from the Left, so there is more of an “eek!” factor. I agree, there are some stupid commenters out there in the Reacto-sphere, but that’s to be expected in an area where free expression has been supressed for fifty years. In addition, it always helps to remember that numerous lefties, such as Richard Warman, have posted at alt-right websites, posing as Stormfronters, in order to uncover “hate speech”. All is not always as it appears…
Right at the moment, it would be a shame if West Hunter were to close comments, which they would probably be just as apt to do if invaded by deranged Elizabeth Warren fetishists as by WNs. But it hasn’t been.
And if you’re concerned with gaining wider acceptance for HBD, it’s not a question of equivalence or fairness; life isn’t fair. It’s a question of HBD and WN being actual different things, and the latter being a thought-terminator for the people you’re asking to think about this stuff.
As a matter of fact, HBD is pretty much anti-WN, just as much as it is anti-PC. The truth is the enemy of all lies, not matter what they are. And we should always emphasize that fact; we believe that HBD is true, not just convenient, and if you believe in HBD for any other reason, you’re probably missing the point.
Toddy Cat: “As a matter of fact, HBD is pretty much anti-WN, just as much as it is anti-PC.”
I’m no WN but that’s just not true.
HBD isn’t just test scores. Personality traits vary across ethnic groups as well and having high IQ isn’t the only feature that’s necessary for social peace.
I agree with what you say about personality traits, but there’s a lot more to HBD that “white, black, yellow” too. There are significant differences between European populations as well, not as big as between the races, but still pretty large, and that extends to personality types as well. There is no one “white race”, and if there is, Ashkenazi Jews are almost certainly a part of it. Most white nationalists would vomit at this. So even though I respect your opinion, I still think that true HBD is anti-WN, at least as most WN’s understand it today.
Toddy Cat:
When you go to work or the grocery store do you see these simmering inter-white tensions? Have the Brits and Irish in your community started their own version of the crips and the bloods?
White people are different, but not that much. Not enough that anyone cares. “White people are different so lets ignore how blacks aren’t even in the same ballpark” isn’t really a defensible position. I think we’ve all had that same common experience. I don’t even know what the specific background of most of the white people I know is, they are just white.
White people found ways to live together in harmony, despite whatever small differences and growing pains there may have been. That just isn’t true between white and non-whites.
“and if there is, Ashkenazi Jews are almost certainly a part of it”
How? Do you know any Ashkenazi Jews? It’s really obvious they are different from your average white. As someone who grew up in a Jewish town the assertion is absurd.
I think it’s a given that HBD has a political platform: (1) end of mass immigration, (2) end of disparate impact.
There are others that are strongly implied but debatable — things like education, welfare, etc. — but the above two are just slam dunks. If someone says HBD doesn’t imply the above they are just lying.
You don’t need to be a WN to figure this out; ask plenty of well respected statesmen over in Asia. And — surprise, surprise — they take the attitude of WN in their own countries. Japanese people don’t freak out at being labeled Japanese Nationalists when they won’t allow any immigration and tell everyone unashamedly that Japan is for the Japanese. Even the Jews are big on being Jewish Nationalists over in Israel.
“White people are different, but not that much. Not enough that anyone cares. ‘White people are different so let’s ignore how blacks aren’t even in the same ballpark’ isn’t really a defensible position.”
Indeed, it’s a variant of Lewontin’s fallacy.
Like all scientific measurements, biodiversity, human or otherwise, has no implicit political meaning. This is something the left gets mixed up all the time, confusing the science of ecology with the political platform of environmentalism. It would be difficult — not impossible, just difficult – for environmentalism to exist without certain data gathered and models created by researchers studying ecology, climate, and other physical sciences.
But it is quite possible to accept ecology without deciding that the the ideal political platform revolves around saving pandas.
Likewise, it is quite possible to understand the basics of human biodiversity and still be in favor of mass immigration. Indeed, as Ron Unz tells the story (see p. 13), recognition that Hispanic immigrants are substantially less violent than black Americans and poor white Americans is one of the reasons they are so eager to have such high levels of Hispanic immigration to America’s largest urban areas.
Likewise, one could still support immigration purely on humanitarian grounds, recognizing that ethnic tensions and other concerns brought up by NRx types are simply a cost worth bearing.
And so forth an so on.
“When you go to work or the grocery store do you see these simmering inter-white tensions? Have the Brits and Irish in your community started their own version of the crips and the bloods?”
No, but I seem to recall some interesting things happening involving Brits and Irish between 1968 and 1994 or so that made the Bloods and Crips look like a bunch of Boy Scouts. We won’t even get into Yugoslavia, Ukraine, etc. Certainly, I’d be the last person to argue that race differences don’t exist, but they are not ALL that exist.
“Do you know any Ashkenazi Jews? It’s really obvious they are different from your average white.”
Yeah, I do, and sure, the’re different, but we’re talking HBD here, not observational sociology. Genetic testing indicates that Ashkenazi Jews fall broadly into the “White” (or at least “caucasian”) category, and most of them are at leastpartially European in stock.
“I think it’s a given that HBD has a political platform: (1) end of mass immigration, (2) end of disparate impact.”
I certainly support both these things, and I believe that HBD does support and buttress these positions. But then again, I supported these positions before I had ever heard of HBD, and it is important to note, as T. Greer points out, that there are some HBD believers (like Jayman, Ron Unz and a few others) who accept HBD but do not support these positions.
HBD is a fact, and facts do lead us in certain directions, if we desire certain things. But in order to be brought into line with the facts of HBD, WN is going to have to change somewhat. This shouldn’t be hard, because unlike leftists, most WNs are not in total denial of the facts.
T. Greer,
Unz position reminds me a lot of a Simpsons. Go to 20:20.
Yes, you could say, “I know HBD says that mass Hispanic immigration will result in Brazilification and destabilization that will be bad for everyone but the elite, but I’m an elite or wanna be elite, and there is some vague possibility it won’t be so bad, so here’s some clever silly self interest gussied up in universalist rhetoric and I’m really just doing it for these poor NAMs that I’m building a wall to separate myself from unless they are mowing my lawn.”
That is a position. I just think its an obviously immoral one. And I think if that was what immigration got pitched as it would be a massive flop that nobody supports. So we are left with a position that can only be achieved by mass propaganda and thought control police. If someone like James Watson points out that Hispanic immigration will actually hurt and not help something like public debt he has to be crushed, because if people came to believe its true there is no way they would take the pro immigration position. Mass immigration can’t win in the marketplace of ideas, so its being force fed through fear.
Toddy,
There is a difference between nationalistic violence by a terrorist group over the fact that Ireland was subject to British rule for 700 years and didn’t like the terms of its independence vs how regular people view and treat each other in regular life. Again, when you go into your place of work is there and Irish faction and a British faction? Do they eat separately? Do they favor each other for promotions in a nepotistic way? Do they seem to have wildly different cultural understandings on all sorts of things? No. Though you could make that same charges when talking about whites vs non whites.
I don’t talk about Eastern Europeans or Russians because America does not share a border with them, they are not immigrating en masse, and they are a small minority in the country. As such I don’t have a strong opinion on them because I don’t have to.
It seems obvious to me that Jews act different enough from whites for it to matter on a host of issues. When I went down to Florida a few weeks ago to visit a friend and remarked that he was a walking Jewish stereotype that’s because being Jewish is a distinctive pattern that is different then the pattern you would expect for a “typical white”. And he agreed, Jews know Jews are different and act like it.
“that there are some HBD believers (like Jayman, Ron Unz and a few others) who accept HBD but do not support these positions.”
Yes, but their positions are immoral and wrong given the facts of HBD. “We are going to use Mexicans to displace blacks even though they all drag down the country because we personally profit from it in some way,” isn’t exactly a defensible position.
No there are not British and Irish factions in America today, but there sure as Hell were 100 years ago, and I’m not sure what’s more “normal” or in line with HBD. And for what it’s worth, I think that Unz is an idiot, too. Jayman isn’t, but he wouldn’t be the first guy who didn’t follow his logic to its logical destination…
Well, 100 years ago, when tensions between Protestants and Catholics was causing damage to society, what did they do again? Oh yeah, they passed immigration restriction and kept it in place for four decades.
If that’s what it took to solve a relatively small difference (Northern vs Southern Europe) what do you think it would take to solve White vs Hispanic? European vs Muslim? And keep in mind that the economic and cultural conditions of today are vastly different (and less conductive to assimilation) than back then.
Jayman doesn’t even believe in free will. So if he’s pissed off at me, I guess I didn’t have a choice it was the only thing I could have done.
That said, if I was black I would deny HBD and deny HBD had any implications and then marry a white woman. Do we really want Jayman selling out his own people? I think its morally defensible for him to look out for their interests, even when its to the detriment of society at large. That’s why diversity sucks, it makes perfect sense for people to have loyalty to their ethny but that means in multi-ethic societies nobody is loyal to society at large. And when they say they are its almost invariably that they are loyal just to themselves with universalism as an excuse.
“Well, 100 years ago, when tensions between Protestants and Catholics was causing damage to society, what did they do again? Oh yeah, they passed immigration restriction and kept it in place for four decades”
I totally agree with this. Immigration restrictions make sense no matter what one thinks about WN or HBD.
“Yeah, I do, and sure, the’re different, but we’re talking HBD here, not observational sociology. Genetic testing indicates that Ashkenazi Jews fall broadly into the “White” (or at least “caucasian”) category, and most of them are at least partially European in stock.”
See, this is what I mean about HBD not being just test scores.
Observational sociology is part of HBD (see the Inductivist’s sadly defunct blog). The only reason to downplay observational sociology is that most HBD debates are with people who will lie and say anything to deny obvious truths, so it’s easier to just stick to the most difficult to dispute ground — test scores and life outcomes. (Personally I like discussing brain volume as that’s particularly hard to dispute.)
If you’re debating in a progressive-free zone you can discuss the full implications of HBD, and observational sociology is part of where you gather evidence.
There’s a good point there, and that’s one reason I’m not a WN. There’s lots of whites that I’m not particularly wild about letting into the USA either. As Steve Sailer has pointed out, lots of Hispanic “La Raza” style activists are pretty much pure Spanish. And there’s no doubt that the Irish are as white as it gets, but can anyone argue that the USA would not have been better had the Kennedy clan been kept out?
Maybe I should start saying that when “progressives” call me a racist; “Hey don’t stereotype me! I hate lots of white people, too!”